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What Christians Ought to Believe with Michael Bird

To hear the podcast click here.

David Capes 

All right, we’ve got people listening to this podcast that are in every part of the world, and they may not use creeds in their church. Let’s start with a very basic question. What exactly is a creed? 

Michael Bird 

A creed is normally something that the ancient churches put down to express and define its faith. Both the content of their faith, but also the boundaries of their faith. We are the people who are committed to this articulation of the gospel, this story. We believe these truths about God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. The creeds put it down in a simple way that can be understood, can be learned, can be repeated in the context of worship, or also it can be utilized in the context of discipleship. 

David Capes 

You could use it as a platform for discipleship. I grew up in a tradition and people listening to this podcast may have and they say things like that, “no creed, but the Bible”. That statement assumes that you have a Bible. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, exactly. Or you have one translated into a language you can read, 

David Capes 

And that assumes you can read. Throughout much of the history of the church, people couldn’t read and there weren’t Bibles in every home. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, exactly. Before Bible apps, before the printing press, the main way people encountered scripture was through what they heard in church. They learned things they were taught early in their faith. Maybe they memorized Psalms and prayed elements like that. That’s why I get a little bit confused when people say the Bible is the center of our faith. Now, I’m a biblical scholar. I really do love me some Bible. I know you do too, David. But what was the center of people’s faith before the printing press? 

One of the main ways people learned Christian doctrine was, from their priest or pastor in their church, teaching them. Simple things by the prayers they prayed, being able to recite the Lord’s prayer or the Apostles Creed was the main foundational tools that people had when they wanted to understand who God was towards them. The Creed is like a portable theological syllabus you can take with you wherever you go. Wherever you can recite the Lord’s Prayer, you can begin thinking, praying, teaching and speaking about God, just by using the Apostles Creed as the template. 

David Capes Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 3 – 

Now you’re an Anglican by confession, and you confess weekly, like other Anglicans, the Nicene Creed, which is longer. And you could write the same thing with the Nicene Creed, as you do with this, but it would be a longer book! 

Michael Bird 

Well, Anglicans are technically meant to say the Apostles Creed every day. We’re meant to say the Nicene Creed on Sunday, and I think we’re meant to say the Athanasian Creed on Trinity Sunday. But that one’s very long. We don’t normally do that. But you’re right, the Nicene Creed does sound very similar to the Apostles Creed, but it’s longer. That was a creed that was based in a more polemical context, where the church was trying to figure out, who is Jesus in relation to God the Father. Is Jesus semi divine, miniature divine, or is he divine in the same way as God the Father? And it kicks off with the Creed of Nicaea in 325 AD and then climaxed when the Creed of Nicaea augmented or polished up a bit in 381 AD, in the first council of Constantinople. So, yes, that is very similar to the Apostles Creed, but it’s got a little bit more of a focus on the person of Jesus, God the Son, and a little bit more of a polemical rationale behind it as well. It’s saying, these are where the limits of the Christian faith are. 

David Capes 

I’ve always thought it’s kind of interesting because the Creed begins with something like pisteuo or credo. “I believe.” I believe. But it’s almost always “we”. We do that together. There are times that I would want to say, this is what we believe. We believe in God the Father. We believe in the Holy Spirit. We believe in the Holy, apostolic, catholic Church. I have a little bit of a push back there. I wish we would say this together, as with what we believe. Because we have come to this faith together. We’ve not come to it in isolation. I didn’t arrive here on my own. I arrived here as a result of the ministry and the witness of thousands of people before I was ever born. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, and that’s the amazing thing. When you recite the Apostles Creed, you are joining a chorus, a communion of people around the world, right now. Think about it horizontally, but also then vertically. There are men and women well over a thousand years who have been reciting this creed as a statement of their unity in the one God. So it’s about, one LORD, one faith, one baptism, that we all share. And the symbol of that sharedness of our unity with each other is the way we recite the Apostles Creed. 

Another interesting fact is in a lot of churches, it’s customary to recite the Apostles Creed after the sermon. The logic there is, after you’ve heard the sermon from a teacher, it’s like now evaluate that against what it says in the creed. So, you go from the sermon to the Creed to remind you of what we’ve just heard but now think of it over and against the Apostles Creed. Hopefully the two are unified together. That provides, if you like, the immediate report card or the lens, the context in which you should remember and evaluate the sermon you’ve just heard. To ensure that you’re not just getting the ravings and strange, peculiar thoughts of some rando preacher! We now confess the Apostles Creed, because that is the context which we understand and evaluate the Word of God when it’s preached and presented to us. So that’s another interesting tradition. 

David Capes Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 4 – 

We should give everybody cards, and they can hold up a card from 1-10. 

Michael Bird 

A scoring card, a scoring system. 

David Capes 

Yes, exactly but the Russian judge would always lower it several levels. You know how that goes with the Russian judge! 

Michael Bird 

Yeah, I know. I know 

David Capes 

One of the things you talk about here, is the idea of faith is fact. I think that’s the way you put it. And people today say you have facts or you’ve got faith and they’re not the same. And I love that little section where you talk about having faith based on fact. 

Michael Bird 

Faith is certainly far more than ascent to facts. There’s an element of trust. There’s an element of fidelity, even, dare I say, allegiance. But faith does include assenting to certain revealed truths about God. That God is Father, Jesus is Lord, the Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father. What faith does, and this is faith as articulating the content of what we believe, that’s an important element. In the ancient world, Christians were not unique by having important religious or theological beliefs. You can find that in Greco-Roman philosophy. You can find that in various cults, religions and popular practices in the ancient world. 

Where Christians were unique, is that they had an enthusiasm to police the boundaries of belief. That is where Christians were very, very unique.They don’t have theology. No, they did have a theology. They did have beliefs. You can read Cicero’s on the nature of the gods as a good example of debates about theology in the ancient world. But Christians really did want a certain degree of precision, particularly when it came to who God is and the relationship of God the Son to God the Father. And it was using belief as the boundary for what it means to behold, believe in God and follow the Lord Jesus Christ. So, faith as fact, was one of the more interesting and the more unique features of the first Christians. 

David Capes 

Yes, interesting. I really appreciated that section. One of the sections too, that I liked was the harrowing of Hades. That is a piece of the creed that some people would like to do without. You make a good argument that it’s important that we think about that, that we confess that, that we understand that as well. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, part of the problem is that our older English renderings of the Creed, now the Apostles Creed, is initially a Latin creed. A lot of early translation says that Jesus descended to hell, and people have found that problematic. Because hell is the place of eternal punishment for sinners who rebel against Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 5 – 

God. What would Jesus be doing there? You’ve also got the problem of whether hell actually exists yet. Because in the book of Revelation, it says, “Hades will be poured into the lake of fire”. You’ve got the idea that hell doesn’t exist [until in the future]. This is a future state for the wicked who remain resolute in their rebellion against God. So, people have always found that problematic. 

The problem goes back to the fact that there are different Latin words for a place in the afterlife. There is inferna and there is Infernum. If I can remember correctly, inferna refers to the waiting place of the dead like Hades, but Infernum refers to the place of everlasting judgment. We could say that there’s a distinction between Greek it would be Hades, the waiting place of the dead and Gehenna, which is hell, the place of everlasting judgment. That distinction got lost in the early Middle Ages, and some Latin manuscripts would interchange inferna and Infernum. So, there was a bit of a confusion that was introduced at at that point. 

People would say things like, Jesus descended to hell. What is far more likely and what is more in keeping with what we find in the New Testament and other creedal traditions about the church is to say that Jesus descended to Hades, or he descended to the place of the dead, and that also means we have to bring back Holy Saturday. Now we have good Friday, and the death of Jesus for our sins, and the atonement. We have the resurrection. But on Holy Saturday, Jesus participates in death. He goes down to Hades, experiences the full consequences of death in that way. And then leaves Hades, and comes back to life. 

And one area where the Christian tradition has really gone to town, in art, song, poetry, has been talking about what Jesus was doing in Hades and how he took everyone out of Hades, all the saints since Adam. He took them out of Hades and took them up to heaven with Him. So, it’s been a whole tradition discussing that. When Christ descends from Hades into the resurrection and then his ascension, he’s also taking with him all of the Old Testament. saints who are translated from Hades into this new heavenly abode. It’s a very interesting feature of what we would call individual personal eschatology, and something I think is notoriously misunderstood in creeds and confessions these days. 

David Capes 

I think you make a good point in the book. Here is the blurb on the back of the book by Amy Peeler. 

With his quintessential clear and playful prose, Mike Bird presents the glories of the faith received from the apostles. And in the second edition, he makes personal contemplation and communal conversation about Christian faith even more achievable. 

That’s great praise! What did you do in the second edition to enhance personal contemplation and communal conversation? What happens here? 

Michael Bird 

Well, generally, I added about 10% more content to the book. I added a few more paragraphs, clarifying a few things here and there, but at the end of each chapter, I would also add these brief reflections and some questions that people might want to consider and think about. That’s something I’ve tried to do. It’s more than, there’s the resurrection of Jesus, or there’s something on the Holy Spirit. I wanted to give Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 6 – 

people some material to think about and to consider after what they’ve read, what they’ve contemplated in this chapter. One of the other things that inspired me to update this book is I found out it’s being used as one of the textbooks for seminary courses in prisons in the United States. Generally, when I talk to my publisher about markets, it’s not one I’m really going in after. 

David Capes 

That’s not one that you think about. There are a lot of Baptists imprisoned in Texas. I don’t know why! It’s a fun book, and I see that you have readers work with one another too in it. There are also QR codes where they can get information. You’re actually teaching through the book. For people like me that can’t get enough of Mike Bird, where do we go to get more of you teaching and speaking? 

Michael Bird 

Oh, there’s a few different places. I’ve got my own podcast with the N.T. Wright, called the Ask N.T. Wright, Anything Podcast. I’ve got a sub stack called Word from the Bird, which I spend a lot of time playing around with. And also a YouTube channel called Early Christian History. So that’s kind of what I do in my copious amounts of spare time when I’m not teaching, academic “deaning,” and all those sorts of tasks. I try to put a few things out in the virtual world. 

David Capes 

For the cost of a premium coffee in the United States, you can have a Word from the Bird on sub stack. That’s the best $7 I spend every month. 

Michael Bird 

Bless you, and if anything, I hope I’m stopping you from drinking more coffee. 

David Capes 

Well, you can’t stop me from doing that. In fact, I drink coffee as I watch you, because I know you love coffee so much! 

Michael Bird 

Yeah, the inside joke here is I have a pathological hatred of coffee. I can’t stand the taste, the smell, or the fact that people spend so much time raving about coffee. 

David Capes 

Well, there we go. Mike Bird, thanks for being with us today and being a part of this. We’re talking about his book today, What Christians Ought to Believe: An Introduction to Christian Doctrine Through the Apostles Creed. It’s a great book and I would recommend it. I may be using this soon as a teaching tool in our church. Thanks, Mike. 

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Paul, the Stoic Rabbi

To hear the podcast click here.

Joey Dodson  

Hi. I’m Joey Dodson. I’m the Craig L. Blomberg Chair of New Testament at Denver Seminary in colorful Colorado.

 David Capes  

Dr Joseph Dodson, Joey, welcome back to our podcast.  

 Joey Dodson  

Thanks so much for having me. 

 David Capes  

It’s a delight to see you here. You’re here for a few days. You could be here for a few weeks, if you wanted to, or maybe a few months working, because we have places for scholars to do that kind of thing. But you’re here working on a project.

 Joey Dodson  

Yeah, this is my third time here finishing up a project, so it’s become part of my rhythm to finish a book here. And I’m very grateful to you and Mark and people at the Lanier Theological Library. It’s a great place to have quiet, to have a library, to have community.

 David Capes  

And to be asked to interrupt your work and come over and do a podcast!

 Joey Dodson  

It’s always great to talk to you. 

 David Capes  

Yes, I’m delighted. Last year you finished a book, and it’s the book that we’re going to be talking about. It’s entitled Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought. But we’re just so glad that you’re here. Thanks for being a part of this conversation today. All right, I always ask, what’s the big idea of the book.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, thanks for having me. Homer was the most important work in the first century. I begin by talking about how Homer’s favorite nickname for Odysseus is “polytropos”, a man of twists and turns. Because he can become all things to all people according to the matters at hand. And so it’s similar to how Paul can, in a sense, out Odysseus, Odysseus. He’s the one by his own profession, can become all things to all people in order to reach them. To the Jew, he becomes one like a Jew. To those that are not a Jew, he becomes like them as well. And this is an example of how Paul is a man of twists and turns. How when he’s standing toe to toe with a Jewish contemporary, he can carry on a great conversation, and then also with the philosophers of his time. Paul is that man of twists and turns, and how that fleshes out in his letters.

 David Capes  

One of the things that people don’t realize is that Paul himself actually quotes from literature from his time, and authors from his time. Do you find that people are upset that Paul is drawing from something other than the Jewish tradition? 

 Joey Dodson  

I don’t think they should be, if they are. Paul is a man of many worlds. He was born in Tarsus, and Tarsus was like an Ivy League town of the day, full of scholars.

 David Capes 

 Like a Princeton.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, or like a Lanier! So he’s surrounded by those and Paul as one who has a heart to reach all people, is willing to use whatever he can in order to proclaim the truth of the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 David Capes  

Your book is really divided into two parts. The first part is the more Jewish part. You say, Paul the rabbi, the philosopher. Do you mean that in a technical sense, Paul the rabbi?

 Joey Dodson  

I do not. Almost like what we see in the fourth gospel, when John and calls Jesus a rabbi. So this is not a professional rabbi post, 70 AD. But this is a rabbi to show that Paul is a Hebrew of Hebrews, that Paul is one who has that Jewish training. One of my children is neuro divergent, and once just blurted out, “Paul has Jewish underwear.”


I’m not sure what the child meant, but I do think that at Paul’s core, he is a Jewish teacher. The first half of that puts him in conversation as if he’s having a cup of coffee with a current author of his time, who we call the author of the Wisdom of Solomon. Which is actually in our very first New Testament, the Muratorian Canon. But that’s a different discussion for a different podcast. I put Paul in dialog with the author of the Wisdom of Solomon. They’re writing about some of the exact same issues. They’re dealing with it. 

And most scholars believe that when Paul writes Romans, the Wisdom of Solomon is on the desk. Where it is on the desk, whether it’s in the center or on the side, is debated. But the vast majority of Romans scholars think that we probably shouldn’t read Romans unless we have the Wisdom of Solomon. And some even say that the interlocutor, the imaginary friend that Paul conjures up in Romans 2:1, “but what about you, Oh, man.” Paul is gesturing to the author of the Wisdom of Solomon, or someone like him.

 David Capes  

For those who don’t know the Wisdom of Solomon, where would they find it?

 Joey Dodson  

In the Deuterocanonical text, the Apocrypha. And it was written somewhere between Malachi and Matthew, probably at the turn of the first century.

 David Capes  

So it’s really contemporaneous with Paul and Jesus.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes correct. And again, it deals with some of the exact same issues that Paul’s going to deal with, particularly in Romans. This is someone who doesn’t know Jesus Christ and probably had written this before the beginning of Jesus’s ministry, but a faithful Jew trying to live out faithfulness to Torah, faithfulness to the Lord in exile. 

 David Capes  

Yes, as I recall, it’s mostly written in terms of a poetic form, isn’t it?

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, it’s Alexandrian Greek. And so as similar to what we might see with Philo Apollos, who hung out with Priscilla and Aquila. This is the type of language that he would have, and it’s very beautifully written. And he’s going to not only deal with some of the same topics and the same context as Paul, but drawing from the same holy text, the same Hebrew, the same Jewish Scriptures that Paul is going to be drawing on.

 David Capes  

Are there quotations in the Wisdom of Solomon, like Paul says when he uses an introductory formula, let’s say, or other times like that?

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, there are, exactly. Even sometimes, when Paul writes in Romans, it sounds like he may be quoting. In Romans 5:12 where it says “sin and death enter into the world”, the Wisdom of Solomon says almost the exact same Greek, except he leaves off sin. It’s just “death enters into the world”. Some believe that even Romans, chapter 1:18-32 is a paraphrase, a summary of the Wisdom of Solomon chapter 13, even to the point of “you were without excuse”, like what we see in Romans 1.

 David Capes  

How would you define wisdom, not necessarily the book Wisdom of Solomon.  What is wisdom?

 Joey Dodson  

I think Paul, and we don’t see it as much in Romans as we might see it in 1 Corinthians and Colossians, but there’s this wisdom theology, or wisdom Christology, that’s there. We see it in John, in the Wisdom of Solomon, he’s going to have a Holy Trinity. His Holy Trinity is going to be masculine, feminine and neuter. The masculine is going to be logos. And so the Logos is going to be a figure that’s very similar to what we see in John 1. And then the neuter is going to be the spirit, the spirit of holiness, the Holy Spirit. And then the feminine is going to be Sophia. She’s the main character in this. Sophia means wisdom, probably going back to Proverbs, where you have lady wisdom that was with God at creation. Through her, all things are created, and so she is the hero. But again, he’s going to use spirit, logos, and wisdom interchangeably throughout the work.

 David Capes  

It’s a fascinating book. It really is, and I would encourage people to go and read it if they have the opportunity. And to read your book, because what you do is you bring elements from the wisdom into contact with things that Paul has said, and to see the similarities and differences.

 Joey Dodson  

I suspect that Paul read the Wisdom of Solomon, like we might read C.S. Lewis today, or Tim Keller or David Capes if you were going to an ancient bookstore. If there were those in Barnabas and Nobles.

 David Capes  

 Barnabas and Nobles, I love it!

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, it would be really popular. And I’m guessing whether it was Paul was under Gamaliel, or just as his own reading, because there wasn’t as many books during this time that Paul was familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon. 

 David Capes  

These are Jewish books that are written at roughly at the time of Jesus and Paul and they give us a great deal of insight into the Jewish people. So it’s a great thing. Now, the second part of the book is about Paul the philosopher. Is that a technical term that you use that he is a philosopher? 

 Joey Dodson  

I think most people would consider Paul a philosopher. He even teaches in a lecture hall. Philosopher more than a rabbi. Rabbi spoke predominantly to Jewish people. Here Paul is speaking to Gentiles. The philosophers taught both men and women like what we see Paul do, and they’re dealing with some of the same issues. Now, often we think the word philosopher. We think of our philosophy class that we had in the university. Philosophers during this time, predominantly were about moral formation. How do we get rid of those sinful desires and live a life that imitates God and so much of what Paul presents? And this is how the philosophers, when they see Paul, they think he’s an amateur philosopher. He’s very good he’s a sperma-logos. You know, an armchair philosopher, or theologian. But then he begins to speak, and they realize, wow, he’s actually out Socrates’s, Socrates there in Acts, chapter 17

I think for many people. Because Paul is not connected to a cult, because he’s not always even quoting the Hebrew Bible, like what we see in 1 Thessalonians, even though I think that’s under the surface. Paul even quotes some of their poets. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul, in the same breath, it’s just seamless, goes from Isaiah to Meander, this ancient poet. And so “eat, drink and be merry” and “bad company corrupts good morals”. And so you have Paul drawing upon both of those. And for many people, they would see Paul as a philosopher.

 David Capes  

How would you understand inspiration? At that point, people say it’s inspired by God, but he’s quoting this pagan philosopher. How does inspiration work for you?

 Joey Dodson  

Theopneustos. This word inspiration, we often use it in conversations for inerrancy of Scripture, but theopneustos means “that which is coming from the Lord”. One thing that philosophers would say is that all truth is God’s truth. And if Plato stumbles upon a truth, it’s not his truth. This is God’s truth that’s inside of them. When Paul is speaking to the Gentiles, at one point, he says, “you know, God did not leave you without a witness”. Later on, he’ll say, “even as your own poet said”. I believe that just as God uses Moses and the Torah and the prophets, and the Hebrew Scriptures. So also to reach the Gentiles, he’s going to draw on these great quotes that give us a picture of even the Gentiles being in the image of God. God is so providential that just as he’s going to use Moses, he’s also going to use the likes of Seneca to draw people in and it’s effective in Athens. Some there are philosophers that become Christ followers.

 David Capes  

Right, exactly. And he certainly planted some great seeds there. There are people that look at the world as if God was only at work in the Jews and Jewish people, at that time. Like he had never really worked among Gentiles. Mark Lanier makes a great case, I think, for the idea that God is and has been at work in these places as well. Not to the same degree, or to the full flourish that we see in Christianity. But still, God is working. When Paul quotes the philosopher or poet, it could well be that what he has quoted really does, represents the truth, and it represents that which God has breathed into these other folks as well.

 Joey Dodson  

And I think it shows Paul’s evangelistic heart. Even today. I could say God placed eternity in our heart and be more hyper spiritual, quoting Augustine. Or I could say, “I can’t get no satisfaction, but I tried, but I tried, but I tried.” I could go with Rolling Stones, or I could go with Augustine. With both of those the heart is to say that we can only find full joy and eudaimonia, flourishing in Jesus Christ.

 David Capes  

Seneca is your conversation partner here. Why Seneca among others?

 Joey Dodson  

I love me some Seneca! Seneca was the most prolific Roman stoic, philosopher. He was one of the most popular among the elite during the first century, during Paul’s time. So often when people think of Stoics, they may think of Marcus Aurelius, the great stoic emperor, but he would be like the Taylor Swift of stoicism, like pop stoicism. He’s a great entryway. And I love his meditations. They might think of Epictetus, who is a little bit later, and who actually writes in Greek. And so it’s great to put Epictetus as Greek up against other and he writes in Koine Greek at that. But as far as the one who had the most influence, Seneca, would be that one, and he, again, was contemporaneous with Paul. He was born about the same time Jesus was born. He lived in Egypt, probably about the same time Jesus was in Egypt. 

He was born in Spain and comes to Rome. He wants to be a professional philosopher, but his dad encourages him to take a place in the Senate. He went into exile, similar to what we see with John in Revelation, under Claudius. When Claudius dies, the Jewish people are allowed to come back into Rome, if you remember this. And Seneca is able to come back as well. 

He begins to tutor the next emperor, Nero, and ends up dying under Nero. So Nero executes Seneca also. And early church fathers even claim Seneca as their own. Our Father Seneca because he seemed to be at the threshold of Christianity without even realizing that he was. Hopefully the second part of the book will show that, to go back to that theopneustos word, that inspiration. I think the theopneustos should be translated as inspiration when we’re talking about our scripture, but maybe inspiring would be another way. And so Seneca is not inspired the same way that Romans is inspired. That Isaiah is inspired, but it is inspiring. And I’d say he’s saying the same thing as with [Wisdom of] Solomon. It may not be inspired in the same way as Genesis or Deuteronomy, but it is inspiring to read. 

 David Capes  

We would say the same thing about C.S. Lewis. Inspiring to read. And we could bring it into our sermons to help illustrate things. Obviously, they need to get your book, and they need to see how you have pulled together Seneca and Paul into this conversation. But if they just wanted to read something about Seneca, where would they get started? Where’s the best place to read in English? 

 Joey Dodson  

They can probably Google it and get it for free. It’s public access. The translations are going to be different. If you get a public access, it’s probably going to be more like the King James Version. I’m guessing most of the people that listen to this podcast are more erudite, and so if they like languages, you can get the Loeb Classical Series, The LCL that’s going to have the English translation on the one side and the Latin on the other. And I think it’s probably one of the best translations. 

Seneca wrote the letters very similar to Paul, and about the same length as Paul as well. And so when you think of those who wrote really, really, really long letters in the first century, Seneca and Paul wrote these moral essays, like on the providence of God and on mercy. John Barkley, for those of your audience who’ve mirror with him, thinks that Paul’s understanding of grace and gift aligns and accords and harmonizes more with Seneca than anyone else. Paul might say things like in Ephesians 5, “don’t let the sun go down on your anger”. But Seneca is going to have three books dedicated to how to overcome anger and what anger is. And so the moral essays would be that. 

And then he also wrote dramas he had two blockbuster hits, if you will, on Hercules. One in which Nero actually played the part of Hercules during that time. And I’m not a literature person, but literature people say that Seneca’s plays actually influenced Shakespeare, and so it was almost proto- Shakespearean.

 David Capes  

Interesting. Well, it’s a great book. It’s a great idea for a book, and you’ve done well. I’ve got a digital copy here, but I always like to hold the copy. I love the cover. Hendrickson is publishing it. 

 Joey Dodson  

Thank you! One of my former students is an acquisition editor, and like you, I have a hard time saying no to my former students. I prize them so much. This is somewhat of a summative work of my last 30 years studying Paul. And the first half is with Wisdom of Solomon, the second half is with Greco Roman philosophy.

 David Capes  

The book is entitled Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought. The author is Dr Joseph R. Dodson. and Joey, thanks for being with us today on the podcast.

Joey Dodson  

Thanks, All the best.

 Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought.

 

 

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The Impact of Joanna on Jesus’ Ministry

To hear the podcast click here

David Capes  

Hi everybody, and welcome to The Stone Chapel Podcast. My name is David Capes. Joining me today is Dr Nancy Dawson, who has been with us before, several times to talk about remarkable women in the Bible, and she’s working on this amazing book called All the Women of the Bible. We’re going to be talking today about one of those women, and her name is Joanna. Dr Nancy Dawson, welcome back to The Stone Chapel Podcast.

Nancy Dawson

Thank you, Dr. Capes!

David Capes  

You’ve been here before to talk about the women who are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew. And you’ve also been here before to talk about your book, All the Genealogies of the Bible. You’re working on another one called All the Women of the Bible. Tell us about that project.

Nancy Dawson  

There was a theme there. It’s a very exciting project. Broadman and Holman have asked me to write that book. Of course, it covers Old Testament and New Testament women. There’s around 350 women. So it’s a comprehensive, and a little bit daunting task, But very exciting and insightful to see the roles that women have. And why are they there? Why are they mentioned? How do their stories dovetail with what else is going on in the narratives and their overall importance. When you look at a fleshed out view of the women, you see how important they are. They do counter cultural things. I see that they foreshadow many of the characteristics of Christ and also divine characteristics. Through their actions, sometimes words, but definitely through their actions, they do these remarkable things. They are noteworthy.

David Capes  

All right, so when should we be able to go to Amazon or go to our local bookstore and pick that up?

Nancy Dawson  

It’ll probably be a couple of years. I’m in the middle of the research right now, which I enjoy so much, but getting that down into words and edited takes time.

David Capes  

You like the research better or the writing better?

Nancy Dawson  

I definitely like the research better. That’s my background but I’ve always been interested in teaching the Bible and writing about men and women.

David Capes  

Well, you’re a great teacher. I’ve seen you teach here. I’ve had you come to the course I teach for Truett seminary on the gospels and the book of Acts. You’ve done a great job in those classes. You’re a good teacher as well as a good researcher, and a great writer. 

All right, Joanna, let’s talk about Joanna.  Joanna is a person that a lot of people may not know very much about. She’s mentioned in passing in some ways, but she’s mentioned in some very important times and places. Let me read one of these texts from the Gospel of Luke. And it’s Luke, chapter eight, verse one. 

Soon afterward, he (Jesus) went on through the cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the Good News of the Kingdom of God. And the 12 were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities. Mary called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s household manager. And Susanna and many others who provided for them out of their means.

Nancy Dawson  

Remarkable. Number one, you probably haven’t ever heard a sermon about her, but she’s this Galilean aristocratic woman who is healed by Jesus of evil spirits, along with Mary Magdalene and Susanna. And remarkably, she becomes a disciple or follower of Jesus. The text says that she’s the wife of a Herodian official. And of course, they’re talking about Herod Antipas, who was the successor of Herod, the Great, his father. And this is a real poignant place in the text that tells you about her background and what information she might have about that royal court. And then, she becomes this faithful follower throughout Jesus’s ministry, and she’s going to be a witness, along with other women, to the crucifixion and the empty tomb.

David Capes  

She’s gone from Galilee at that point, the Galilean ministry, down to Judea, so she’s traveled with them. Is that correct?

Nancy Dawson  

Yes. Her name means “God has given graciously”. She’s named after her father, which might be common these days. Her father’s name was John or Yohanan, and this was a common practice in the Second Temple period. There was research done by a wonderful scholar named Tal IIan, who worked on Jewish women in the Greco Roman world and about 3- 4% of the women are called Joanna. It’s a very common name. Around 46% of the women are called Mary. So, this is why you always see terms of disambiguation for the Mary figures, like Mary of Magdala or Mary mother of Jesus. 

And some scholars have speculated that she should be equated with the Junia figure of Romans 16. I don’t adhere to that, but some scholars have said this is a possibility, but they’re usually very tentative, in making that association. She’s married to Herod Antipas’ steward named Chuza. He was an appointee of Herod and had a lot of court responsibilities, overseeing his estates, possibly acting like a steward or a guardian over the ones that would be up and coming for inheritance under Herod Antipas.

David Capes  

And they lived in Tiberias you said.

Nancy Dawson  

They lived in Tiberias, which was on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee. That town was basically built by Herod Antipas around AD 18-20 but noteworthy is it was built over a cemetery, and so this is not something that goes down well.

David Capes  

That’s not really kosher! Tiberias is a thriving city today. If you go to Israel, you’ll see it on that western shore.

Nancy Dawson  

It’s part of Galilee. It’s one of the major cities. Jesus grew up in this small Nazareth hometown in the Sepphoris area and so that’s the general area. But what we see with Joanna is that she’s definitely from this elite, aristocratic background. She’s Jewish, and whether her husband was a believer or not, is not clear. 

David Capes  

You mean a believer in Jesus?

Nancy Dawson  

In Jesus. She seems to be a type of informant, both to the Herodian court and also to Jesus and his followers of what’s going on. More than once she said Herod Antipas has heard about Jesus, and he’s curious, and he wants to see him. But he wants to see him so that he’ll perform a miracle for them.

David Capes  

He wants to see a show, doesn’t he?

Nancy Dawson  

Yes, that’s exactly right. But you can see that there’s this definitely negative overlay. She’s from a wealthy background, so has the luxury of the socially elite. Also, this is a highly Romanized place. The Jews do not like the taxation. They do not appreciate any of the political domination, the economic exploitation. Heron Antipas actually had to pay people to come and live in Tiberias.

David Capes  

Like Alaska today, you have to pay people to go live up there. There’s a couple of things I found fascinating from this. She’s mentioned specifically, as well as Susanna, as providing for Jesus and his ministry out of their own means. Let’s discuss that part of it.

Nancy Dawson  

These women are following Jesus and that’s strange and counter-cultural for the day. You don’t hear about women being in the entourage of John the Baptist. This is something you hear about only with Jesus. So, this is very striking for that time. Jesus invites women and approves of them being a part of a mixed entourage. So that’s very noteworthy. 

What you see is that she is supporting Jesus out of her own personal finances. There was a great book written in 2002 by Richard Bauckham called Gospel Women, and he researched where women would have the ability to have discretionary funds that they could use, possibly separate from their husband. Because Chuza may not have been supportive of this. She has at least some disposable funds at her discretion. 

And there’s seven sources. One is that you could have inheritance from your father. Usually, this is like the prodigal son. The father is dead, and then you receive it. But there’s also property that can be acquired by a deed of a gift from your father or mother or your husband. That she could use also. There was at the time of marriage, ketubah money, the marriage contract money. That was what her husband would pay to her in case they were ever divorced or something would happen to him. 

David Capes

A prenuptial agreement in a way,

Nancy Dawson

Exactly, yes. She could have tapped into that. The dowry that was paid by her husband to her father, sometimes that is given to the daughter. 

David Capes  

This could be considerable money that you’re talking about.

Nancy Dawson  

Yes, or possibly property. Something like Barnabas, who sold his property to support the ministry. And it could be something like this that she availed, this source of funds and monies to give. And this is so consistent with her name which means “God has given graciously”. Then you see that she, in turn, gives graciously. This is a striking aspect of ministry.

David Capes  

There’s a lot of talk these days among scholars about benefactors and patrons and those kinds of things. Benefaction is a particular kind of giving, but what I hear you saying is this is not really “benefaction.”

Nancy Dawson  

Not according to that traditional female patron benefactor role where a wealthy person is giving money or provisions for a community in return for status or honor. Instead, she actually joins this itinerant band of followers of Jesus. She is not regarded in any special way. We know from the story of the widow with two mites, she gave everything that she had, and so that was what was praised. Not how much you give, but that you give willingly and graciously. And this is what she does. 

David Capes  

It’s striking to me that she leaves behind a rather a luxurious life for this itinerant life, sleeping in tents and walking lots of distance and probably doing lots of washing clothes at the river, those kinds of things.

Nancy Dawson  

Yes. We don’t really know. The text is silent on what these women actually do. But Luke is so poignant in mentioning this; that it’s women who support the ministry. It doesn’t mean that men did not support the ministry, but Luke is making a statement on what is generally true. And so, you see the mention of her in a Luke 8:3 and then we’re going to see that Luke mentions her again in Luke 24. There’s an inclusio, a literary inclusio about Joanna that I find is again, remarkable.

David Capes  

Let me read that text. We’re looking at Luke 24:9.

Now at daybreak on the first day of the week Jesus had been discovered as raised from the dead. Then they, (that is these women) who observed this returned from the tomb and announced all these things to the eleven and all the others. The women were Mary Magdalene, Joanna and Mary, the mother of James, and others who accompanied them, also told this to the apostles. But their story, (that is, the women’s story,) seemed like nonsense, so they did not believe them.

What do you learn from that?

Nancy Dawson  

The testimony of women was considered unreliable. I think it was J.D. Atkins on one of the Exegetically Speakingpodcasts that said the old lexicons say that sounded like hum-bug. It’s like just an old wives tale. We’re not going to believe that. It’s just a silly tale that women are saying. But what you see is in all the Gospel accounts, it is women who are present at the crucifixion, at his burial, at the empty tomb and at the resurrection. Now John 19:25 also mentions one of the disciples that was at the crucifixion, and that was John the Beloved Disciple, but you don’t hear any mention about men. And again, this is noteworthy. These women have a staying power, a presence, even in these difficult moments. They’re not running away. 

They’re not afraid. They’re there at the crucifixion and they’re at a distance, it says. But then at the burial, they’re taking spices to the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea; and they prepared the body, but because it was a Sabbath, it wasn’t completed. It was done in haste.

David Capes  

They had to, by the rules the Sabbath, stop what they were doing with the idea that the when the Sabbath is over, the first day of the week has arrived, which was a day of work, then they would go back finish the job.

Nancy Dawson  

And so, this is what the women do. They complete this proper burial ritual. They prepare spices and take them in. They complete that process. But when they arrive at the empty tomb, two angels are there, and they say to the women, 

“Why are you looking for the living among the dead? He is not here, but he has risen.”

And the next phrase that’s used is, 

“Remember how he spoke to you when he was still in Galilee, and He would be crucified and rise on the third day”.

And then they remembered his words.

David Capes  

In other words, the women were there when Jesus was saying all this.

Nancy Dawson  

Yes. You see that they don’t even have to touch Jesus or eat with Jesus, or remember the scriptures. They remember his words. And this is what we’re all called to do, is recall the scriptures, recall what Jesus has said. And so, they become these incredible eyewitnesses and servants. Joanna left a life of ease. She reminds me a little bit of Old Testament Abigail, who was married to Nabal, the fool. And she leaves that life of luxury and becomes a wife and follower of the Son of David, and so, there’s these interesting parallels.

David Capes  

Yes, there are interesting parallels. What’s one thing you take away from Joanna as you think about your own life here in the 21st Century?

Nancy Dawson  

What I see is that we always need to be flexible. We need to consider and be ready to leave that life, that maybe we have had, and be willing to follow a new path. And that Jesus can use you with whatever you bring. For Joanna it was possessions, but it was also a kind of fidelity, and this is what we’re called as Christians to do. And Luke probably uses Joanna as a source for information. The material that’s unique to Luke is called the L material in text criticism. She is giving these personal insights. This is what we all bring. It’s a personal insight. God can use you and remake you. And transform you.

David Capes  

I like the idea that Luke is naming his sources, throughout the gospel. He does it, I think, with Mary as well, and in an earlier passage. This is a great, great help, honestly. Maybe somebody will feel now they need to do a sermon on Joanna and encourage women and others who are there, who have the ability to give a gracious gift and be a gracious blessing. Dr Nancy Dawson, thanks for being with us today on this podcast.

Nancy Dawson  

Thank you so much. 

Description

Dr. Nancy Dawson is back on The Stone Chapel Podcast to talk with Dr. Capes about a woman in the New Testament who followed Jesus.  Few could name her or tell us anything about her. Her name is Joanna.  She came from elite circles to follow the Nazarene in a less than luxurious life. Luke tells us (Luke 8:1-3) that she supported Jesus’ work financially and was a close follower of him. 

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The Africa God Wants

Master Obi
This is Dr. Master Oboleetswe Matlhaope, otherwise known as Dr. Master or Dr. Obi. I am a citizen of the world, so I prefer people to choose among those names, which one is easier for them. You can call me Master. You can call me Obi. I was called Obi from childhood, so I resonate with all those names.

David Capes
Dr. Master Obi. Good to see you. Welcome to “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”

Master Obi
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

David Capes
You’re here, studying for a month or more, working on some writing projects.

Master Obi
Yes, it’s a fantastic place. Quite an experience. I had not known about this place until I came here. I heard about it when I was scouting around, choosing the best place to do some research and writing. Langham Partnership recommended this place, and there’s no regret for coming here.

David Capes
Langham is a good friend of ours and a good partner in ministry. There’s a lot of folks who don’t know you. So for people who don’t know who you are, tell us a little bit about you.

Master Obi
I come from Botswana, that is a country right in the center of southern Africa. I come from a town called Ghanzi. It’s in the southwest part of the country. In that region, specifically, I come from a village, it’s a small village, but the best place on the planet.

David Capes
What is Botswana known for? Is there a particular export or is there a particular thing that people would say, oh, that’s Botswana.

Master Obi
Botswana is well known for diamonds. If you Google it, some of the biggest diamonds were discovered in Botswana, and the other thing that we are well known for is beef. We pride ourselves on beef. I spoke less about beef when I tasted Texas beef!

David Capes
Oh, okay, did you like it?

Master Obi
I did.

David Capes
You did like it. Okay, good, good. So do you have a family?

Master Obi
Yes, first, I’m married to a beautiful lady called Boipuso. And the Lord was very generous. God partnered with Boipuso, and they gave me the best children. Prince is my first born, David is my second born, and Abigail is my third born, and my friend, my closest friend.

David Capes
And now today, you don’t live in Botswana. You live in Kenya.

Master Obi
Yes, by assignment, I live in Kenya, Nairobi. The headquarters of the organization, which I will introduce is in Nairobi, Kenya.

David Capes
Tell us a little bit about that organization that you’re working with. You’re the head of that organization.

Master Obi
Yes, I am the Secretary General of the Association of Evangelicals in Africa, AEA. This is an umbrella organization for all Evangelicals and Pentecostals in the continent of Africa, all together at a continental level.

David Capes
Now this is a voluntary association, right? People connect because they want to connect.

Master Obi
It is a voluntary association, but it’s an umbrella association, meaning we are in 51 of the 54 countries of Africa. And in each country, you have an umbrella body. Now in that particular country, Evangelicals and Pentecostals come together under that alliance of fellowship. And then at the continental level, those alliances are called the Association of Evangelicals in Africa. Besides the umbrella national alliances, we also house para church organizations like World Vision, Compassion International, Wycliffe, Africa Enterprise and many other associate members.

David Capes
What is the job of the Secretary General?

Master Obi
The Association of Evangelicals is structured under a board, but the members of this board are in different countries. Because the board is interspersed like that, the board appoints a Secretary General to run the organization in the interim between board meetings. The Secretary General then reports to the board.

David Capes
How often does the board gather to meet?

Master Obi
The constitution provides that the board meets once a year.

David Capes
Is that in Kenya, or is that some other place?

Master Obi
The board meets anywhere, and they dispose of the mandate of the board, as per the Constitution. And then from there, they go back to their countries. The Secretary General runs the organization, makes decisions, forms partnerships, creates programs. Then they get reports together for a board update once a year.

David Capes
So do you also run the board as the Secretary General. Or is there somebody else who runs the board.

Master Obi
In terms of governance, the board is under the Chair of the Board.

David Capes
Oh, I see. People don’t realize how large Africa is. It’s a large continent, and I describe it by saying you could put three United States in Africa and still have room left over. And there’s a billion people in Africa. How many of those would be Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians? Do you have a sense of that number?

Master Obi
Yes, the commonly held statistic will put the number of Christians over 700 million. In terms of our constituency, the common statistics says there are 182 million evangelicals, and 202 million Pentecostals.

David Capes
So, Pentecostalism is very strong in Africa?

Master Obi
If you add 182 million, plus 202 million, that’s the Association of Evangelicals. That’s 380 million, so it’s quite a big chunk of the Christian body in Africa.

David Capes
You guys need to send missionaries to North America. You need to send some people over to help us over here, because you’ve got a lot more Christians over there than we do.

Master Obi
Yes, true. But before we do that, we have a bit of work that we need to do. Because the understanding of mission needs to be deconstructed and reconstructed in our context. Because what we are seeing when Africans go elsewhere in the name of missions, they go after fellow Africans. So, you see Africans in the United States, and you look at the membership of their churches, it’s Africans. And they go back and they say, we are missionaries. We are in missions. So that’s why I say we need to reconstruct the understanding of missions.

When Western missionaries went to Africa, for me, I see purity of missions. Here are people of a different color going to people of another color, and they are so focused in reaching these people, even though they have no commonalities, no language, no cultural commonality. But they did everything it took to reach these people. The Africans who are doing missions outside Africa, need to understand missions and that it is not an easy task.

They need to therefore be properly equipped mentally and spiritually to know what they are going to do, so that they go and reach America. And America is diverse. It is Hispanic, it’s black, it’s white. You can’t have a missionary church in America which is only black. That’s why I think we need a bit of work in Africa for our missionaries to understand that as Africans now we are tasked by our Lord to reach the world.

David Capes
Talk about leadership of churches in Africa. Are there enough pastors and church leaders in Africa and church?

Master Obi
We don’t have enough church leaders in Africa. I can tell you, the church in Africa is growing exponentially, and the growth outnumbers the pastors. We have a lot of those that are genuinely called to the pastoral work but are not trained. So training is a need that is a challenge. We have serious growth, and very few trained leaders to match the growth.

We will not be able to do that with formal education only. We need to now be intentional with non-formal theological education, and that’s something that we are taking seriously. We have quickly put together a curriculum, a non-formal theological education curriculum. There are some organizations in the continent who are also doing non-formal theological education, but even that needs to be a bit organized in terms of standards. So, you have all these people doing the non-formal theological education which does not have standardized, verified curricula.

We have an accrediting body as AEA. Now this is the body that does accreditation of theological education in Africa. For many years, this body only had formal theological education standards, but now I have tasked them to develop a non-formal theological education curriculum standard. Anybody else in Africa who is providing non-formal theological education can subject their curriculum to those standards, and then we can move towards standardized curriculum in Africa.

David Capes
That will just raise the quality of the thinking and the theologizing and the preaching and the teaching on the continent altogether,

Master Obi
Precisely, in order to match the growth.

David Capes
What’s interesting to me, Master Obi is the fact that we have more schools here in the United States, but fewer students. We have more seminaries and more schools that could give a very formal theological education, but those schools are shrinking. But over in Africa, you need more schools. You need more teachers. You need more people. People who are raised up within the African context, who can teach within that context, teaching the languages, teaching the cultures, teach against that, and show how the gospel really fits and works in Africa.

Master Obi
That is very, very true. It would be great if we can transplant some of these seminaries and put them around intentionally. This one in the east, this one in the west, so that we can meet the need! But having said that, it is true. I tell my people that we need a curriculum that is contextualized for Africa, that meets the needs of Africa. Because African church leaders are dealing with people who have a background of witchcraft. They are dealing with people with a background of religious extremism. You are dealing with a continent of people that have an environment that is infested with corruption and so on and so on. We need a curriculum that is tailor made to produce a leader equipped to handle people like this.

David Capes
Because they’re going to encounter people like this?

Master Obi
Yes, so that we can then also transform Africa. As AEA, we have a long-term vision: the Africa that God wants. For us to achieve that we need leaders who are trained to transform Africa.

David Capes
And if you were to tell our listeners one thing they need to do to pray for Africa, what would that be?

Master Obi
The church in Africa is growing. It should continue to grow. One thing that we need to pray for is, in as much as there is horizontal growth, we also need the vertical growth. The deep-rooted Christian faith and also a faith that is connected to heaven. So, we need to pray for numerical growth, as well as quality growth. Secondly, we need to pray for persecution. Christians in Africa, in a number of countries, are going through horrible persecution.

David Capes
Yes, we hear about that on a weekly basis.

Master Obi
We need to pray for the brothers and sisters who are going through those persecutions. We need to pray for our brothers and sisters under repressive regimes. There are countries where my brothers and your brothers are in hiding. In order for me to meet them, I go through a third person. I talk to this person, and then he will talk to one person, who will then talk to them to say the Secretary General wants to meet you. They will pick a date, they will have to go to a place which is safe, and then they can make a video call. It’s so emotional, and in most cases, they go with pseudo names, and I have to protect them. I can’t even put their names on the website, because once they are exposed, they go to jail and they disappear for forever.

David Capes
Boko Haram seems to be one of these groups who is not officially part of the government, but they’re still persecuting. You do have governments who are oppressive and would want to jail Christian brothers and sisters.

Master Obi
We have governments which are repressive. You talk of Eritrea, and it’s not a secret, and they should know, if they hear my voice, that we know our brothers and sisters are persecuted and do not have the freedom of worship. Our brothers and sisters are hiding. They have been killed. They are refugees in neighboring countries. So, it’s not just the jihadist, it’s repressive regimes such as those. And then you have jihadists around the Sahel. Sometimes the jihadists take advantage of weak states. When the government is weak, that’s an opportune space for extremists. They find Christians worshiping. They kill as many as possible so that particular church will close. This is reality. This is happening, and these are Christians like you and me, killed for what they believe, Jesus Christ.

This is the reality of Africa. So when you pray for the Christians in Africa, the persecuted church, they should know it’s real. We need resilience. Northern Africa was Christian. But no more, and that’s what they want, to displace Christians in as many places as possible. They are trying to break the Sahel line, and that’s a highly contested line now, of course. Now there’s sporadic extremism, even down south in the southern part of Africa, in Mozambique, Cabo Delgaldo. Already we put together an awareness summit, and I brought people from the Cabo Delgado just to tell their story. And it was horrible what they were telling us. In one example, a pastor is beheaded right in front of his wife. As that was not enough, the wife is carrying a child in her arms. The child was taken from the mother and chocked in front of the mother. The child was then cooked and the mother was told to eat her child. This is more than barbarism. This is more than inhumanity. This is evil. And this is not something that happened in the 18th century, in the 19th century. It is now.

David Capes
It’s happening now. It’s happening in the world of AI and in the world of the internet.

Master Obi
I’ve been to Niger, I have met my brothers and sisters of the capital, because they were given an ultimatum to denounce Christ, or on the following day, we are coming for you and your family, And the only thing these Christians could do was to run. I visited where they are living in plastic shelters. And these were decent people who had homes and families, but they had to flee to these inhuman shelters because of their faith. And it’s not only in those countries that I mentioned. In the Central African Republic, there is a displaced Christian community. I was in the Democratic Republic of Congo, eastern region, and we do what we can with what we have. Sometimes we feel that we are doing nothing.

I went into this makeshift rehabilitation center for child soldiers. My eyes can’t leave this little boy in front of me. I’m addressing them, you know, giving them encouragement, and motivation. We are teaching them upholstery to give them alternative skills so that they can have a way of living without a gun in their hand. My eyes cannot leave this boy, and I’m told he was a child soldier for seven years. And I’m trying to figure out how young he was when he began to be a child soldier. I broke. I literally broke. I held that boy in my left hand as I was speaking to his peers and others. I couldn’t leave him. I loved him, and I believe that was the love of God. I had $50 in my pocket. I took that $50 and put it in the hand of this boy. I didn’t know what else to do. This is the heart of God, the God that you and I serve. This is how God feels about these brothers and sisters going through difficult situations.

Because this was just a makeshift upholstery rehabilitation facility, where we are trying to give them this equipment and it’s not up to standard, but it’s what we could give. And the following year, when the war was raging, and the rivals were closing in on Goma, the influx of women and children was just overwhelming. The General Secretary of our national alliance in the Democratic Republic had to take a bus that time. I was in neighboring Rwanda. In the morning, I had a knock on my door. When I opened, it’s a man and five others, And he says, Dr Master, we need help. The premises of the Alliance are filled with human beings. My own house is filled. We don’t have any more space. We need help. Give a voice on our behalf.

Fortunately, from nowhere, I had a thought of Barnabas. When I called, they were very kind. What can we do? I said, let’s build a school so that these children can continue their lives when they find themselves with nowhere to go. They sent for $48,000 and we were able to put together a facility for these children. And we were able to also buy sewing machines for the women because they have lost their source of livelihoods. We bought 100 sewing machines for these women to train on how to sew so that they can sell what they make, and have a source of living. You know, just humanity, being human. So these are some of my experiences on the ground, and they don’t end there. There are many examples of what is happening in Africa.

David Capes
Well, the next time you come back to the Lanier Theological Library, we’re going to want to hear about more of these stories. Because they’re fascinating, they’re heartbreaking, but they will cause us, I think, to pray. To pray for you as the leader, but also to pray for all those who are facing the kinds of struggles that you’ve described today. Dr, Master Obi. Thank you for being with us today on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”

Master Obi
Thank you. Thank you for having me and thanks to our listeners.

Posted on

Study in Jerusalem: Online and In the Land

Baruch Kvasnica
My name is Baruch Brian Kvasnica, and I’m president of Jerusalem Seminary.

David Capes
Dr. Kvasnica, good to see you, Baruch.

Baruch Kvasnica
Good to be here.

David Capes
Thanks for being with us. We’re here together face to face, which is always good. Now you’re president of Jerusalem Seminary. We’re going to find out more about that in a minute, but I want to find out about you now. For those who don’t know you, who is Baruch Kvasnica?

Baruch Kvasnica
I was born in Michigan and raised mainly in Michigan, as well as the Philippines and Papua New Guinea, where I graduated as a Wycliffe MK. I loved my time there as a kid, growing up with a broader mission than just a local church, but also the whole world. I went from Ukarumpa High School in Papua, New Guinea, to Houghton University in Western New York. Knowing that I had Jewish heritage, that idea expanded in college, getting to know a person who was born and raised in Israel. And that piqued my interest.

I really wanted to study early Christianity in the land of the Bible. I went there in the summer of 1994, and I couldn’t believe how much I didn’t know. I thought I knew my Bible well, and then I went to the land. It showed all these places where I had gaps that I hadn’t focused on, or I didn’t understand, or hadn’t paid attention. And I just ate that up. I jumped on an Anglican priest course at Tantur with Jim Fleming and Kenneth Bailey. And I couldn’t believe that. It was amazing. I studied under Petra Heldt at Hebrew University on Eastern Christianity. As a history and religion major, I thought I knew my history of Christianity, but I didn’t know it very well.

David Capes
Now you’d already graduated from Houghton?

Baruch Kvasnica
No, this was between my junior and senior year. I was there just for nine weeks during my summer break. I went back to Houghton and became pastor of a little country church, as well as finishing up my honors project on John Wesley’s Religious Epistemology. I applied to different seminaries, and I got a full-ride offer to an Ivy League school. But I decided not to take it because my life was influenced so powerfully by those nine weeks in the summer of 1994. I went back [to Israel] after Houghton and started studying religious studies, comparative religions between early Judaism and early Christianity.

David Capes
Where were you studying at that point?

Baruch Kvasnica
At Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The Harvard of Israel.

David Capes
Our good friend, Emmanuel Tov, teaches there. He’s great.

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes, he’s been my neighbor down the street for the past 10 years.

David Capes
So, are you married?

Baruch Kvasnica
I’ve been married very, very happily for 24 years to Shoshi, my wife. She was born and raised there in Israel. She’s a messianic Jewish gal.

David Capes
So, how’d you get the name Baruch?

Baruch Kvasnica
Baruch has been my name for the past 15 years. I was walking one day in 1998 with my dad, and he said, if I ever immigrate to Israel, I think I’d be Baruch instead of Bob. And then when I became a permanent resident there, I said, hey, this is a good opportunity for me to recognize my latent Jewish heritage. I’m still a believer. I’m a Christian. I’m the same person, but I’ve seen a lot of Jewish believers assimilate to the point that their Jewishness is no longer realized. Statistically, two to three generations after a person becomes a believer, their children don’t understand themselves as being Jewish anymore.

David Capes
Though by heritage and by blood, they are.

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes, so I thought this is a way to reaffirm what my dad felt, and who my grandfather was. I feel like I’m blessed. My wife and I have seven children, and we’re so thankful. We’re living in the land which is a blessing and a challenge. Baruch means “blessed, blessing.”

David Capes
You’re president of Jerusalem Seminary. Tell us a little bit about it. What is its mission?

Baruch Kvasnica
When I went first in 1994, I couldn’t find a place where I could do a Master’s of Divinity in English. I needed that to be ordained. I looked for different ways to do that. I couldn’t find an easy way to do it. Later on, I could do it online. But I didn’t really want to do it online. I wanted to do it in person, if possible, or some component in person.

So, I thought, there’s not a seminary in the land of the Bible. Why not create one? That’s the short story. The longer story is that my life was so transformed by being in the land and learning Hebrew, and not just Greek. I learned Greek too, and that’s awesome, but knowing both Greek and Hebrew really impacted my faith. It rooted me in the land and history of the people of Israel, that strengthened my faith. It challenged it a little bit too. And I thought, God, this is so amazing. I want to share this with other people. I started guiding and teaching pastors and academics and lay people. In 1998 I saw that it was
also beneficial for them. I started training Bible translators in Hebrew.

I saw the impact that Hebrew in the land had, both in my life and for others. I thought, wow, everyone going into ministry should have the opportunity to spend some amount of time with the right people in the land of the Bible. And so that’s really the driving passion of why Jerusalem Seminary exists, to give that opportunity that I had, that I hope many, many thousands of others can have in the coming years.

David Capes
Now, are you an online seminary, or are you residential? How does that work?

Baruch Kvasnica
We started in 2018.

David Capes
Okay, so at this point you’re only seven years old.

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes, and this is just before the pandemic. Our first school of Hebrew was founded in 2018, and this was geared towards Israelis, to have them learning Biblical Hebrew in a lived or communicative manner. Israelis know a little bit of biblical Hebrew, because modern Hebrew is not too different. The first 1,000 words are about 88% the same vocabulary. But beyond that, the poetry and a lot of the syntax is different.

We wanted to train them, and not just teach them Biblical Hebrew, but teach them how to teach in this lived, expressive, spoken way. They became the core of our teachers, both residentially, abroad and online. What we’re doing still is training Israelis to learn how to teach Biblical Hebrew, and they do that by going to Mongolia, Nigeria, Togo, Myanmar, Grand Rapids. Two by two, we send these Israelis, these Messianic Jews who know Biblical Hebrew inside and out and express that. All of the learning is done in that manner. That’s our School of Hebrews, founded in 2018.

In 2021 we started the School the Bible, which started right in the midst of the pandemic. We started that completely online. We were able to have some short-term courses come in 2022 and 2023. And we’re looking to expand that. But our School of the Bible, started in 2021, and this is more on a BA level, more for enrichment. This fall, just a month or two ago, we started our School of Graduate Studies, and this is our first degree, a MA in Biblical studies.

David Capes
In these other programs, you don’t earn a degree. They are more of a certificate program. But the graduate studies, you’re offering the full degree.

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes, that’s right. But our certificates are not lightweight, meaning that almost half of our students are Bible translators. Because I’ve been training Bible translators in the land of the Bible for about 15-20, years. They know about us, and they know, by God’s grace and for His glory, how incredible our School of Hebrew is. They are coming to learn online and in person in August. For example, every August for the past eight years, and diaspora Hebrew month-long intensives, we call them. So even though they’re certificates, they’re actually very serious.

David Capes
Yes, they can be. This is fascinating! All right, so if people have heard something today and they want to connect with you, how would they get connected with Jerusalem Seminary and you as President?

Baruch Kvasnica
Well, jerusalemseminary.org is our website, and that has our course catalog.

David Capes
jerusalemseminary.org.

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes. They can see the course catalog and can register for both individual classes. They can take them for credit. They can take them for audit. There are also certificate programs. And there’s also the new MA in Biblical Studies that requires them to be in the country twice. So, everything can be done online, except for two residential intensives in the land.

David Capes
Are those one week, or two weeks?

Baruch Kvasnica
Two weeks.

David Capes
Two weeks each. Do you have residences that they can occupy?

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes, as soon as we received money, that was given from here in Houston, back in 2017. As soon as I knew about this seed money, I immediately thought of the building that we’re in. It’s the Alliance Center. It’s where a number of institutions have been born, and it has eight dorm rooms. It has a beautiful chapel, it has classrooms, has offices. It’s right downtown in central Jerusalem.

David Capes
Oh, wow. So, this is not tin he Old City.

Baruch Kvasnica
It’s about a seven-minute walk from the Old City. On Prophet Street. It’s even biblical!

David Capes
Nevi’im the prophets! So, people can get to know the city of Jerusalem. Do they go up to the Galilee, over to the Dead Sea, and Jericho? Places like that.

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes, we often start our short-term courses down in the Negev just like the patriarchs and the wanderings in the wilderness and the manna. And then we move up to the Galilee at some point for a couple days or so and see the coast. Then focus at least half the time in Jerusalem. So yes, it’s definitely an active field trip and lecture combination for our short-term courses.

David Capes
How has the war affected you and your institution?

Baruch Kvasnica
It’s been a long journey. Not only the war, but COVID was tough for everyone. Israel tried to be really tough.

David Capes
Everything was shut down.

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes. Then the war has persisted in bringing challenges. It’s been a very difficult psychological challenge. We’ve had staff that have been involved in serving. They’ve been pulled out for reserves because about 75% of our staff are local, so that makes us a little unique too. There’s a number of institutions in the land. God is building us in such a way that we can be there, long term. We pray, so that we can have a lasting effect.

Some of my children are needing to serve because that’s required by law, boys and girls. That clipped our wings as far as bringing students in the land, but we’re looking forward to a new era. Now that there’s greater peace, we have a number of seminaries and Bible colleges interested in coming back to the land. Having short-term courses or a semester abroad or a year-long program. We’re looking forward to the future.

David Capes
I know some of the people who teach for you, but for our listeners, tell us a few people that teach for you. If I were to come and study, besides working with you and learning Hebrew, who could I study with?

Baruch Kvasnica
We have Dr. Gerald McDermott, who’s been with us from the beginning, Dr. Petra Heldt, who was my first teacher in Hebrew University in 1994 and she is amazing. We’re trying to get her to write a book. We have Randall Buth, who’s doing some of the lecturing for the gospels course. We have Dr. Halver Ronning, who has been here. Nick Aaronson is coming on board. Walter Kaiser is on our Advisory Council.

David Capes
What does the future look like over the next three to five years?

Baruch Kvasnica
We are looking forward to having hundreds of students come each year. Our goal is 1,000 a year in about 5-10 years, but looking for hundreds to come and be in the land or online. We have about 250 students now, each year, but only about 20% of them are in the country. We want to just expand that from 250-1,000.

David Capes
Your students are from different countries?

Baruch Kvasnica
Yes. This semester, I think we have 14 different countries. Last semester, we had 85 from 21 countries. This is mainly because we have so many Bible translators. But the wonderful thing about Bible translators is, often, they’re not just translating Bible. They’re also preaching, yeah. So we get two for one, preachers and Bible translators at the same time,

David Capes
All right, once again, for those who want to be in touch with you. Maybe they feel like they want to donate some money, or maybe they feel they’d like to study in the land. I’d like to go over there for two weeks and have some time or take a short-term course or be involved in a program of study. How would they do that?

Baruch Kvasnica
They can connect us with us at jerusalemseminary.org. They can write, email, call. If they’d like to donate, there’s a “Give” page. I totally believe that this is God’s doing. That the Kingdom needs to advance in the land of the Bible. Meaning that pastors can be rejuvenated. Seminarians can be rooted in the land and will have a much more fruitful ministry by being connected to the land and language of the Bible. If people would want to join what God is doing at Jerusalem Seminary, feel free to check us out at jerusalemseminary.org.

David Capes
That sounds great. Dr. Kvasnica, thanks for being with us today on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”

Baruch Kvasnica
Thank you very much. My pleasure.

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