Dr. Peter Lillback joins David Capes on The Stone Chapel Podcast to talk about George Washington. He has written an important book entitled George Washington’s Sacred Fire. He tackles the historical question: Was George Washington a Deist? A good historian will not answer that question until he/she has read everything Washington ever wrote or said. Beyond that, the historian will want to hear from everyone who had first-hand knowledge of Washington. That is what Lillback did. So what’s the answer? Listen and see.
In a recent episode, Dr. Ellie Paley walked us through Job 42:6, Job’s final response to God’s answer from the whirlwind. The very next verse, Job 42:7, presents the conundrum of how Job, who was just rebuked by God, is now commended by God in contrast to his three friends. The Hebrew wording suggests that the key difference between Job and his friends lies in the direction of their speaking: To God about Job or to Job about God? Dr. Paley has taught courses at Duke Divinity School and Jerusalem University College, and is transitioning to a postdoctoral position at Bar-Ilan University near Tel Aviv. Her doctoral research on Divine-Human Dialogue and Resolution in the Book of Job is forthcoming with Brill.
Due to his extensive writing and lecturing John Walton is recognized as a leading scholar on OT backgrounds. His attempts to convey this research to varied audiences, often non-specialists, has led him to search out imagery that will make even involved ideas more intuitively accessible. One such metaphor is that of cultural “backpacks.” Dr. John Walton, Old Testament Professor Emeritus at Wheaton Graduate School, is a frequent contributor to this podcast. He has many volumes in his “Lost World” series along with many other publications, including (with Andrew Hill), A Survey of the Old Testament (4th ed.). He is currently collaborating with Dr. Aubrey Buster in preparing a major commentary on Daniel (NICOT). The first volume on Daniel 1-6 is already available, and the second volume on Daniel 7-12 is on the way.
Hi everybody, and welcome to The Stone Chapel Podcast. My name is David Capes. Joining me today is Dr Nancy Dawson, who has been with us before, several times to talk about remarkable women in the Bible, and she’s working on this amazing book called All the Women of the Bible. We’re going to be talking today about one of those women, and her name is Joanna. Dr Nancy Dawson, welcome back to The Stone Chapel Podcast.
Nancy Dawson
Thank you, Dr. Capes!
David Capes
You’ve been here before to talk about the women who are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew. And you’ve also been here before to talk about your book, All the Genealogies of the Bible. You’re working on another one called All the Women of the Bible. Tell us about that project.
Nancy Dawson
There was a theme there. It’s a very exciting project. Broadman and Holman have asked me to write that book. Of course, it covers Old Testament and New Testament women. There’s around 350 women. So it’s a comprehensive, and a little bit daunting task, But very exciting and insightful to see the roles that women have. And why are they there? Why are they mentioned? How do their stories dovetail with what else is going on in the narratives and their overall importance. When you look at a fleshed out view of the women, you see how important they are. They do counter cultural things. I see that they foreshadow many of the characteristics of Christ and also divine characteristics. Through their actions, sometimes words, but definitely through their actions, they do these remarkable things. They are noteworthy.
David Capes
All right, so when should we be able to go to Amazon or go to our local bookstore and pick that up?
Nancy Dawson
It’ll probably be a couple of years. I’m in the middle of the research right now, which I enjoy so much, but getting that down into words and edited takes time.
David Capes
You like the research better or the writing better? Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 2 –
Nancy Dawson
I definitely like the research better. That’s my background but I’ve always been interested in teaching the Bible and writing about men and women.
David Capes
Well, you’re a great teacher. I’ve seen you teach here. I’ve had you come to the course I teach for Truett seminary on the gospels and the book of Acts. You’ve done a great job in those classes. You’re a good teacher as well as a good researcher, and a great writer.
All right, Joanna, let’s talk about Joanna. Joanna is a person that a lot of people may not know very much about. She’s mentioned in passing in some ways, but she’s mentioned in some very important times and places. Let me read one of these texts from the Gospel of Luke. And it’s Luke, chapter eight, verse one.
Soon afterward, he (Jesus) went on through the cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the Good News of the Kingdom of God. And the 12 were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities. Mary called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s household manager. And Susanna and many others who provided for them out of their means.
Nancy Dawson
Remarkable. Number one, you probably haven’t ever heard a sermon about her, but she’s this Galilean aristocratic woman who is healed by Jesus of evil spirits, along with Mary Magdalene and Susanna. And remarkably, she becomes a disciple or follower of Jesus. The text says that she’s the wife of a Herodian official. And of course, they’re talking about Herod Antipas, who was the successor of Herod, the Great, his father. And this is a real poignant place in the text that tells you about her background and what information she might have about that royal court. And then, she becomes this faithful follower throughout Jesus’s ministry, and she’s going to be a witness, along with other women, to the crucifixion and the empty tomb.
David Capes
She’s gone from Galilee at that point, the Galilean ministry, down to Judea, so she’s traveled with them. Is that correct?
Nancy Dawson
Yes. Her name means “God has given graciously”. She’s named after her father, which might be common these days. Her father’s name was John or Yohanan, and this was a common practice in the Second Temple period. There was research done by a wonderful scholar named Tal IIan, who worked on Jewish women in the Greco Roman world and about 3- 4% of the women are called Joanna. It’s a very common name. Around 46% of the women are called Mary. So, this is why you always see terms of disambiguation for the Mary figures, like Mary of Magdala or Mary mother of Jesus.
And some scholars have speculated that she should be equated with the Junia figure of Romans 16. I don’t adhere to that, but some scholars have said this is a possibility, but they’re usually very tentative, Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 3 –
in making that association. She’s married to Herod Antipas’ steward named Chuza. He was an appointee of Herod and had a lot of court responsibilities, overseeing his estates, possibly acting like a steward or a guardian over the ones that would be up and coming for inheritance under Herod Antipas.
David Capes
And they lived in Tiberias you said.
Nancy Dawson
They lived in Tiberias, which was on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee. That town was basically built by Herod Antipas around AD 18-20 but noteworthy is it was built over a cemetery, and so this is not something that goes down well.
David Capes
That’s not really kosher! Tiberias is a thriving city today. If you go to Israel, you’ll see it on that western shore.
Nancy Dawson
It’s part of Galilee. It’s one of the major cities. Jesus grew up in this small Nazareth hometown in the Sepphoris area and so that’s the general area. But what we see with Joanna is that she’s definitely from this elite, aristocratic background. She’s Jewish, and whether her husband was a believer or not, is not clear.
David Capes
You mean a believer in Jesus?
Nancy Dawson
In Jesus. She seems to be a type of informant, both to the Herodian court and also to Jesus and his followers of what’s going on. More than once she said Herod Antipas has heard about Jesus, and he’s curious, and he wants to see him. But he wants to see him so that he’ll perform a miracle for them.
David Capes
He wants to see a show, doesn’t he?
Nancy Dawson
Yes, that’s exactly right. But you can see that there’s this definitely negative overlay. She’s from a wealthy background, so has the luxury of the socially elite. Also, this is a highly Romanized place. The Jews do not like the taxation. They do not appreciate any of the political domination, the economic exploitation. Heron Antipas actually had to pay people to come and live in Tiberias.
David Capes
Like Alaska today, you have to pay people to go live up there. There’s a couple of things I found fascinating from this. She’s mentioned specifically, as well as Susanna, as providing for Jesus and his ministry out of their own means. Let’s discuss that part of it. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 4 –
Nancy Dawson
These women are following Jesus and that’s strange and counter-cultural for the day. You don’t hear about women being in the entourage of John the Baptist. This is something you hear about only with Jesus. So, this is very striking for that time. Jesus invites women and approves of them being a part of a mixed entourage. So that’s very noteworthy.
What you see is that she is supporting Jesus out of her own personal finances. There was a great book written in 2002 by Richard Bauckham called Gospel Women, and he researched where women would have the ability to have discretionary funds that they could use, possibly separate from their husband. Because Chuza may not have been supportive of this. She has at least some disposable funds at her discretion.
And there’s seven sources. One is that you could have inheritance from your father. Usually, this is like the prodigal son. The father is dead, and then you receive it. But there’s also property that can be acquired by a deed of a gift from your father or mother or your husband. That she could use also. There was at the time of marriage, ketubah money, the marriage contract money. That was what her husband would pay to her in case they were ever divorced or something would happen to him.
David Capes
A prenuptial agreement in a way,
Nancy Dawson
Exactly, yes. She could have tapped into that. The dowry that was paid by her husband to her father, sometimes that is given to the daughter.
David Capes
This could be considerable money that you’re talking about.
Nancy Dawson
Yes, or possibly property. Something like Barnabas, who sold his property to support the ministry. And it could be something like this that she availed, this source of funds and monies to give. And this is so consistent with her name which means “God has given graciously”. Then you see that she, in turn, gives graciously. This is a striking aspect of ministry.
David Capes
There’s a lot of talk these days among scholars about benefactors and patrons and those kinds of things. Benefaction is a particular kind of giving, but what I hear you saying is this is not really “benefaction.”
Nancy Dawson
Not according to that traditional female patron benefactor role where a wealthy person is giving money or provisions for a community in return for status or honor. Instead, she actually joins this itinerant band of followers of Jesus. She is not regarded in any special way. We know from the story of the widow with Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 5 –
two mites, she gave everything that she had, and so that was what was praised. Not how much you give, but that you give willingly and graciously. And this is what she does.
David Capes
It’s striking to me that she leaves behind a rather a luxurious life for this itinerant life, sleeping in tents and walking lots of distance and probably doing lots of washing clothes at the river, those kinds of things.
Nancy Dawson
Yes. We don’t really know. The text is silent on what these women actually do. But Luke is so poignant in mentioning this; that it’s women who support the ministry. It doesn’t mean that men did not support the ministry, but Luke is making a statement on what is generally true. And so, you see the mention of her in a Luke 8:3 and then we’re going to see that Luke mentions her again in Luke 24. There’s an inclusio, a literary inclusio about Joanna that I find is again, remarkable.
David Capes
Let me read that text. We’re looking at Luke 24:9.
Now at daybreak on the first day of the week Jesus had been discovered as raised from the dead. Then they, (that is these women) who observed this returned from the tomb and announced all these things to the eleven and all the others. The women were Mary Magdalene, Joanna and Mary, the mother of James, and others who accompanied them, also told this to the apostles. But their story, (that is, the women’s story,) seemed like nonsense, so they did not believe them.
What do you learn from that?
Nancy Dawson
The testimony of women was considered unreliable. I think it was J.D. Atkins on one of the Exegetically Speaking podcasts that said the old lexicons say that sounded like hum-bug. It’s like just an old wives tale. We’re not going to believe that. It’s just a silly tale that women are saying. But what you see is in all the Gospel accounts, it is women who are present at the crucifixion, at his burial, at the empty tomb and at the resurrection. Now John 19:25 also mentions one of the disciples that was at the crucifixion, and that was John the Beloved Disciple, but you don’t hear any mention about men. And again, this is noteworthy. These women have a staying power, a presence, even in these difficult moments. They’re not running away.
They’re not afraid. They’re there at the crucifixion and they’re at a distance, it says. But then at the burial, they’re taking spices to the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea; and they prepared the body, but because it was a Sabbath, it wasn’t completed. It was done in haste.
David Capes
They had to, by the rules the Sabbath, stop what they were doing with the idea that the when the Sabbath is over, the first day of the week has arrived, which was a day of work, then they would go back finish the job. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 6 –
Nancy Dawson
And so, this is what the women do. They complete this proper burial ritual. They prepare spices and take them in. They complete that process. But when they arrive at the empty tomb, two angels are there, and they say to the women,
“Why are you looking for the living among the dead? He is not here, but he has risen.”
And the next phrase that’s used is,
“Remember how he spoke to you when he was still in Galilee, and He would be crucified and rise on the third day”.
And then they remembered his words.
David Capes
In other words, the women were there when Jesus was saying all this.
Nancy Dawson
Yes. You see that they don’t even have to touch Jesus or eat with Jesus or remember the scriptures. They remember his words. And this is what we’re all called to do, is recall the scriptures, recall what Jesus has said. And so, they become these incredible eyewitnesses and servants. Joanna left a life of ease. She reminds me a little bit of Old Testament Abigail, who was married to Nabal, the fool. And she leaves that life of luxury and becomes a wife and follower of the Son of David, and so, there’s these interesting parallels.
David Capes
Yes, there are interesting parallels. What’s one thing you take away from Joanna as you think about your own life here in the 21st Century?
Nancy Dawson
What I see is that we always need to be flexible. We need to consider and be ready to leave that life, that maybe we have had, and be willing to follow a new path. And that Jesus can use you with whatever you bring. For Joanna it was possessions, but it was also a kind of fidelity, and this is what we’re called as Christians to do. And Luke probably uses Joanna as a source for information. The material that’s unique to Luke is called the L material in text criticism. She is giving these personal insights. This is what we all bring. It’s a personal insight. God can use you and remake you. And transform you.
David Capes
I like the idea that Luke is naming his sources, throughout the gospel. He does it, I think, with Mary as well, and in an earlier passage. This is a great, great help, honestly. Maybe somebody will feel now they need to do a sermon on Joanna and encourage women and others who are there, who have the Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 7 –
ability to give a gracious gift and be a gracious blessing. Dr Nancy Dawson, thanks for being with us today on this podcast.
Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Stone chapel podcast. My name is David Capes. If this is your first time to hear the podcast, please share it with a friend. We hope you will enjoy the conversation that I’m going to have in just a minute with Dr. Robert Morgan. Now, Dr. Morgan has been with us before, but it’s been a few years ago, and he’s written a number of books since then; but we’re going to be talking about a special one today. He is an associate pastor in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. He is also a podcaster himself, and he does a variety of things in terms of teaching the Bible as an expositor of the Bible.
And the other thing that you need to know is he is quite a prolific author. In fact, his books have sold 5 million copies. Now, for an academic, if we sell 500 copies, we’re happy. So, 5 million copies! Wow! Now one of those books we talk about around here a lot, and it’s called The Red Sea Rules. Mark Lanier, our founder, buys these by the truckload, and he gives them away. He loves this book. It’s a great book. The subtitle is The Same God Who Led You In, Will Lead You Out. It’s a great, great book. It’s short; you can read it in probably an afternoon or maybe an evening. And he also wrote another book, Then Sings My Soul. He’s got a new one he just told me about, and we’ll be saying something about that as well in connection with a movie. Dr. Robert Morgan, thanks for being with us today on The Stone Chapel Podcast.
Robert Morgan
I love being with you. I told you off air that your podcast, this one, and Exegetically Speaking, are my favorite podcasts. I look forward to every new episode dropping, and so it’s an honor to be with you, David.
David Capes
It’s an honor, really, to speak with you. And I’m looking forward to you getting back to the Lanier library soon to speak, maybe to some of our certificate students. Now we’re here today to talk about your book. God Hasn’t Forgotten You, and the subtitle is 24 Remarkable Ways God Is Working in You and through You. It’s a terrific book. Now, I was supposed to write this book. I don’t know if you knew this, but I could only come up with 23 ways. And so, I think you ended up writing it because you had 24 ways! I think you ended up getting the nod from the publisher. Just kidding, of course.
It’s a terrific book, and I love what you’ve done with it. It’s a meditation throughout. It’s a devotional kind of book. It’s a scriptural thing, very deeply, and I love the way it begins. Let me just read it. I’m just going to ask you to comment on it because it grabbed me immediately. And it’s things that I hadn’t thought about. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 2 –
“So, the blazing sun had fallen over the Negev desert for 146,100 days without a single word from the God of Israel. Four centuries had passed since the last inspired Hebrew prophets, Zechariah and Malachi had discharged their ministries. In the Judean Hills lived one elderly couple who had not lost faith. And that was Zechariah and Elizabeth.”
That’s a great beginning. How did you come up with that? What was the inspiration?
Robert Morgan
Well, maybe three or four years ago, I wanted to prepare a series of Christmas sermons. And we always go right to Luke two. And I thought, I’m just going to begin here. At the beginning of Luke, we have that marvelous preamble or prologue that Luke has in verses 1-4. And then the more I studied Zechariah and Elizabeth, the more astounded I was at how little I really knew about them. And I just got into that chapter. It’s a very long chapter, and there’s a lot of details given. It’s a very vivid chapter, a very picturesque chapter. And David, everything began with them. Before there was Joseph and Mary and baby Jesus, there was Zechariah and Elizabeth and Baby John, and the whole program began with them.
The Old Covenant began with an old couple who couldn’t have a baby, but they were given a miraculous son. The new covenant story of redemption began with an old couple who couldn’t have a baby but were given a miraculous son. God began everything over again, and as I read through this chapter, there were so many transferable lessons there. This is not an academic book. This is a book of taking Bible lessons that are just beneath the surface and transferring them to our lives. And I just fell in love with Zechariah and Elizabeth and the story of Mary. His visit and the ritual of the temple when Zachariah saw the angel. All of it is fascinating, and we overlook it because we jump right to chapter two and go to the story of Bethlehem.
David Capes
You know, we do that. It’s very interesting because, as you write somewhere in the book, you say you never begin a book with Chapter 2. You always start with chapter 1. Why have we leapt over that? I have the same feeling when people skip over the genealogy in Matthew, because I think there’s a lot of things beneath the surface in that genealogy.
Robert Morgan
Yes, yes, there are jewels just under the surface on every pathway of Scripture, and if you don’t look down and scrape a little of the dirt away, you’ll miss them. It’s just absolutely astounding how much there is. Here is an example in the English Old Testament. The last book is Malachi, and the last thing Malachi says is, and I’m paraphrasing, but I will send you the prophet Elijah, who will turn the hearts of children back to their parents.
Then we have 400 years of silence and the next word, the next canonical or inspired Word, the next infallible Word from God, is what Gabriel said in that temple. And Gabriel’s first words were, I’m going to give you a son who will be like the prophet Elijah, who will turn the hearts of children back to their parents. The last words that God spoke in Malachi and the first words that He spoke in the New Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 3 –
Testament era are like lynch pins on a train. They just link everything together. God is amazing in the way he has these patterns of Scripture.
David Capes
Yes, it is amazing. And to think that 146,000 days had gone by. Four centuries, and you stopped to do the math, apparently on that well.
Robert Morgan
It’s very similar to our own day. During that time period, there was a lot of great literature being produced. The second temple literature and the rabbis were teaching and preaching and writing, and the scrolls were just like today. There’s a lot of books and wonderful material. And the Lanier Library has, I don’t know how many thousands of volumes of things that have been written in the last 2000 years.
But none of it is inspired. Nothing that I write is inspired unless I’m quoting the scripture in what I’m saying. So, there was a lot of great literature being produced in the Second Temple period, but God had not spoken in that prophetic or inspired way since Malachi. Until Gabriel showed up, and then everything started up again, as though it had never stopped. And it went on from there. And an old couple in the Judean Hills who thought their lives were behind them, became the trigger points for everything God was going to do now in the future, through his program of redemption for the world.
David Capes
I think sometimes, Robert, that we neglect John the Baptist as we just skip over him as well. He was there. He did important work. John had a tremendous influence, didn’t he?
Robert Morgan
He did. He was the revival preacher of his day. This carpenter in Nazareth heard about the revival taking place down in the Judean desert near the Jordan river and the Jericho or in that region. And he went down, and that’s where he was anointed by the Holy Spirit and assumed the role of Messiah. Later Paul, when he was in Ephesus, they hadn’t heard of Jesus, but they knew John, so he was a sensation in his days.
And one thing that I speculate about some here in the book is because Zechariah was a priest and Elizabeth was the daughter and the wife of a priest. John had priestly legacy. He was in the priestly line, but we don’t know that he served in the temple in Jerusalem. He seemed to have been set aside to serve the living temple, and he had an extraordinary ministry there, I think, in that priestly role of ushering in the ministry of the one who said, destroy this temple, and in three days I’ll rebuild it. There’s just a lot beneath the surface of Luke 1 that I haven’t gotten to the bottom of. But I went as far down as I could without losing consciousness.
David Capes
You ended up writing 24 chapters, and all of it really is a meditation on Luke 1 which is brilliant, and you pull out so many things, and the way that you translated Zechariah’s name is the title of the book. God hasn’t forgotten you. That’s essentially what his name means. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 4 –
Robert Morgan
Yes, and the story, the real theme of the book, I think, is that we are more useful to God now than we’ve ever been. Zechariah and Elizabeth were described as being very old, and Zachariah said gingerly about Elizabeth, she is well up in years. And they probably thought, like we’re prone to do, we’re going to be faithful until we die, but we don’t have a lot of time left. But what God wanted to do with their lives was just beginning.
They were more useful than they had ever been before, and I think that’s true for you and me and for all of us, regardless of our age. But especially as we get a little older, our society tends to tell us that we’re not as useful as we once were. But I think what this chapter tells us is that we are more useful to the Lord now than we’ve ever been before, because of the growth and the grace and the experience and the maturing that happens over the course of years.
David Capes
Talk pastorally for a second, because, and I’m curious what your thoughts are. How common do you see this feeling or this sense that people have for whatever reason, that God has forgotten them, or that they have been put on a shelf. Do you see that a lot?
Robert Morgan
Yes, yes. People are very stressed. They’re beaten down by life. There’s a lot of pressure. Everybody seems to be too busy. They’re overwhelmed. And you know, David, the thing that has made the difference in my whole life? I was taught when I was 19 years old to have my daily quiet time, to wake up in the morning, to meet with the Lord, to pray with him, and to study the Bible. And I find that is, to me, the source of all of my strength.
I think Zechariah and Elizabeth did something similar to that, but when people are so busy, they don’t have time for that, or they haven’t been taught, and they’re just overwhelmed with life. They think that everybody has forgotten them, but particularly they don’t have a sense that God is watching over them, caring for them, that he’s got a plan for their lives. That he wants to use them now more than ever, and they feel a lack of purpose or a lack of fulfillment. And I think this is endemic in our times.
David Capes
Yes, I think it is too, for all sorts of reasons. One of those reasons you discuss here is the reason of grief in chapter 4. I know you’ve had your own bit of grief that you have been working through as have I. I’ve told you a little bit of our story of losing our son at 36 years old. But I didn’t realize that Streams In the Desert was 100 years old. I needed to say that because it’s a great book and an important, influential book. But one of the things that you cite here is a statement made by the author, Letty Cowman.
“It is such a comfort to drop the tangles of life into God’s hands and leave them there.”
Wonderful, it really is. I know she and her husband were very, very involved in ministry overseas as missionaries. And when he developed heart issues, they had to come home. He was hardly able to do anything. They both were discouraged and depressed. But Letty, began clipping out things that would encourage them from sermons and newspapers, and she would read them to him, and if they really helped them, she would set them aside. And that later became this book, Streams In the Desert.
To me, that is one of the best quotes in the whole book. We have to take the tangles of life and leave them in God’s hands. There is a sense in which we do need sometimes to let go and to let God. It’s like when Jacob said about Benjamin. “Take him on. And if I am bereaved, I am bereaved.” It’s like when Job said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust him”.
There comes a time when we just say, Lord, I cannot solve this problem. I don’t know if it’s ever going to be solved. I’m just going to trust you anyway. But for John and Elizabeth, it was their inability to have a child they had prayed about over and over and over again, and now they were old, and the child had never come. And yet, what Gabriel said was, Zechariah, your prayers are answered. Your wife will have a son. He was so startled that he couldn’t believe it!
David Capes
He couldn’t speak for how long?
Robert Morgan
That’s right, nine months. It was a great gift to Elizabeth.
David Capes
I think it probably was! I think that you have done a marvelous job in setting the tone to help people deal with whatever life has given them, whatever kind of situation. It could be grief, it could be the sense that they are getting older and they feel like God doesn’t need them or my best days are behind me. I think at 70, there’s many good days left. What do you think?
Robert Morgan
I think so. I’m 73 and 5/6, almost 74 and I feel like, Lord willing and if he is merciful, my best days of ministry and work are ahead of me. I think that with aging, it’s a matter of attitude more than arteries, and we just keep going on. I don’t think we should ever stop in our service for the Lord. You know, David, there’s a verse that says, “The eyes of the Lord range to and fro throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully devoted to him”. And at a particular point in time, the eyes of the Lord ranged to and fro the hills of Judah to find an older couple who were faithful and whose hearts were devoted to the Lord. And he found this couple, Zechariah and Elizabeth, and what he did with them has changed history. I just think we need to keep going and rejoice and praise the Lord every step of the way.
David Capes
Yes, and good things will follow. Well, my sense is that you have the spiritual gift of teaching and also encouragement. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 6 –
Robert Morgan
I think the same for you. I really do. You’re a great encouragement to me. David, thank you so much.
David Capes
You’ve got a new book about the origin of hymns as well.
Robert Morgan
Yes, it’s called The Origin of Hymns. When the movie, “I Can Only Imagine 2,” was being filmed partly in Nashville, I was asked to have prayer over the cast and crew one morning. Then I stayed to watch some of the filming. And the producer came up, and he has read my books, and wanted to talk. And we talked a long time, and we talked about the hymns. “I Can Only Imagine 2” has a lot to do with the story of “It Is Well with My Soul.”
So later he called me and he said, you know, all the way through the movie, the main character, Tim Timmons is reading a book. It’s a prop in the movie, but it’s called The Origin of Hymns, and I would just love it if we could have that book to go along with the movie when it’s released. So, we said, I think we can do it. We curated a few things from my Then Sings My Soul Series. I created some other fresh material. We put it together in a beautiful, little easy to read paperback, and it is full of information about the classic, timeless hymns that have existed ever since the first one at the Red Sea.
In Exodus 15, the Israelites begin singing and praising God for delivering them from Egypt. And the history of our hymns is like sinking a shaft into Christian history and studying it from age to age and singing all the way as we go. And this book has been in the top 200 to 300 of all of the books in the US for the last couple of weeks because of the movie. Not a lot to do with me, but people watch the movie, and they see it and they want to get so we’re very grateful. I’ll send you a copy.
David Capes
Thanks, I’d love to see it, and I’d love to have you back to talk a little bit about that, because there’s some great stories there that we need to know. And I think there is, as you and I’ve talked before, a kind of a revival of those legacy hymns, those hymns that have been around for some cases, hundreds of years.
Robert Morgan
Yes. They are objective. They are theologically sound. They focus more on God than they do on us. They direct our attention upwards, “immortal, invisible, God only wise and light inaccessible, hid from our eyes”. We need to sing songs that have deep theology. In fact, a good hymn is simply singable theology. It’s a good Bible study set to music that lets us sing and meditate on the words. I’m a champion. I love the new music. I’m not anti-new music at all, but I’m just not in favor of excluding all of the hymns that people have been singing for hundreds of years.
David Capes
We’ve got to get you back here to talk more about that on another occasion. Dr Robert Morgan, great to see you. Thanks for being with us today on The Stone Chapel Podcast. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 7 –
A Word in Edgewise 
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