Hi. I am George Kalantzis, and I teach theology at Wheaton College, where I also direct the Wheaton Center for Early Christian Studies.
David Capes
Dr George Kalantizis, welcome to The Stone Chapel Podcast. It’s a great pleasure to be with you. We are here at the Lanier Theological Library. You’re going to be teaching a class on early church history beginning tonight for our certificate program. I have to tell you, there’s been a lot of excitement around this class.
George Kalantzis
Thank you. It’s a great opportunity to try to do 500 years in five hours!
David Capes
That’s all we’ve given you for 500 years? I don’t know what that boils down to per decade or per century, but maybe just one hour per century. It’s going to be coming pretty fast. You’re working on some other projects as well. What are you working on now?
George Kalantzis
I’m finishing a book right now on seven questions that framed and shaped the Christological discussions in the first six centuries. Basically, how did the answer, any answer to Jesus’s question, “who do you say that I am”, frames and brings further questions that need further clarity. And in that process, how the church developed a grammar and a lexicon on how to understand and how to speak of the one we worship.
The other project is on the theology of refugees. It’s not a theology for refugees, but it’s a theology of refugees. I’ve been working with the International Association for Refugees for almost a dozen years now. Refugee work in southeast and the eastern part of Africa, hearing the voices of our brothers and sisters who have been displaced. Who have been forcibly displaced, seeking refuge. How do they see God? How do they hear God? Who does God reveal himself to be to them? It’s the same God we worship. Based on our location where we are as we speak of God and expect to hear God in particular ways. They hear God differently. Their emphasis, for example, is a lot more on the Old Testament. The emphasis is on the prophets and the messages of the prophet, the emphasis on the liberation from oppression.
David Capes
That’s what they know, that’s what they’re experiencing.
George Kalantzis
That’s their experience. God is a lot more, can I use the word tangible, to them than perhaps the God of the universe is to us.
David Capes
A lot of times, people think of God in a far-off way. As in, I’m going to God one day when I die. But they have to begin to see God working in their lives, working in history.
George Kalantzis
Yes, even in relationships.
David Capes
Yes, which is very scary, because they have been, as you said, forcibly displaced. They’re not there in Khartoum or some other place because they want to be. They’ve been forced there by some power, some political power.
George Kalantzis
Political, economic, health. They’re fleeing cholera. They’re fleeing famine. They’re fleeing civil war. They’re fleeing militias. Ten or twelve years ago I remember a question from Pastor Steven, a Presbyterian pastor of South Sudanese. When he spoke, he lifted his left arm, half of it was missing because he was cut off by a machete in an attack. And when we asked him, what do you expect from the next week that we’re going to be together.
He raised his hand and said, by the end of the week, I want to be able to forget. Forget that I had to dig with my hands a shallow grave to bury my wife as we were fleeing the conflict. He never stopped being a pastor. He never stopped being a man of God, and now he’s one of the leaders of the Christian movement in refugee camps. But that relationship is a very different relationship with God and certainty of God than perhaps I have in the suburbs of Chicago.
David Capes
Living in easy circumstances. I can’t wait to see that book. Eerdmans is publishing that. Today we’re going to turn our attention to the history of the Christian faith and discuss briefly, the first 500 year period of the early church. From the time roughly toward the end of the first century, into the fourth, and fifth centuries. What are you going to be talking about in that class?
George Kalantzis
All stories begin with Alexander the Great.
David Capes
You say that because you were born in Athens!
George Kalantzis
You don’t have a middle name of “the” for nothing! We’re going to work through five movements, some of the five key developments in the story of Christianity. And it’s not just simply church history; it’s history of Christianity. In other words, more broadly as a movement than just simply ecclesial. The first one is the break with Judaism. How do the two faith traditions, by the end of the first century, beginning into the middle of the second century, start moving away from one another?
David Capes
Yes, because they’ve been mostly one [people].
George Kalantzis
They have been. It sometimes surprises people when I remind them, Jesus was a Jew. So, we’re all the apostles.
David Capes
Yes, everybody that wrote the New Testament.
George Kalantzis
That’s right. But then we have varying discussions, especially in the second century, as Christianity moves beyond the Judea centered experience into the diaspora experience. That’s where we have interactions with Hellenistic or diaspora Jews and Hellenistic Christians or pagans converted to Christianity. To whom do the scriptures belong? And by that, they mean the Hebrew Bible. What happens with the law? Do we keep the law? Who are the true people of God? That has can be seen perhaps as a bit theoretical. But the lived experience of these people is not just simply theoretical. Because being a Jew, or of the genus of the Jew, as the Romans would recognize them, the religion of the Jews carried with it legal standing. Being a Christian did not carry that.
David Capes
It was a new thing, a new religion [as far as the Romans are concerned].
George Kalantzis
It was a superstition. We had no legal standing. So, do Christians claim the status of the Jew? Do the Jews claim the Christians as their team? How does that work? Fundamental break with Judaism that happens both in theology, but also in legal standing and in outlook.
The second is the movement of interacting with the world around them, because now we’re moving from a Jewish environment such as Palestinian, Judea, Samaria, Benjamine to a much broader environment that is Hellenistic, with its culture, with its philosophy. And we have a variety of Hellenistic Judaism, but also Philo in Alexandria, in Ephesus. But also we have middle Platonism. We have middle philosophical systems that are operative, about God, about ontology, about metaphysics, about morality. So how do Christians adopt, adapt, and interact with those philosophical systems? In the beginning was the logos.
David Capes
You’ve got a pretty important Greek term there.
George Kalantzis
That’s right. What do you want to do with that? We’re going to bring that all the way up to the second, end of the second century, beginning of the third with Tertullian of Carthage, the first great Latin theologian who gave us words and concepts like trinitas, trinity to describe what is “three in one” God. Sacraments, etc.
So how does Christian movement interact with, adopt and adapt aspects of Greco-Roman culture and philosophy. Because not only did they take them in, but they changed them again. In the beginning was the word. That’s not a Jewish concept; that’s a Greek concept. John continues in 1:14 and the Word became flesh. Well, his name was Jesus, right? We adopt and we adapt.
The third would be what is this thing? We call it the church, the ecclesia. Great. How do we organize ourselves? When do we worship? To whom do we pray? How do we pray? Do we baptize? How do we baptize? What is this like? How does it function? So, church organization within that context. And what we’re going to see is that sometimes we think that the earliest church starts with a set organizational system, including worship.
David Capes
Just like what I do every week. People think the same way as I do. They do exactly what we do every week.
George Kalantzis
And from there, it diversifies. In actuality, it’s exactly the opposite. There is so much diversity in the earliest generations, and slowly, slowly, it takes us a few 100 years to standardize, sometimes per region, other times per language, etc, our worship and structure. The Eastern Church and the Western Church don’t have the same structure and organization. The fourth one is going to be what do we actually believe? Who is this Jesus? And if we confess with our mother church and tribe that “Hear O Israel, the Lord, your God, the Lord is one”, but now you have two or three. How do you do that?
David Capes
Really looking at the idea of the Trinity that has developed, that it’s already around. It’s not that it just is birthed in that century. But there’s not really been a system that puts it all together.
George Kalantzis
We don’t have the grammar yet. Pliny, the younger, the famous governor of Bithynia in the second century, in 111 AD said “they pray to Christ as if to a God”. Already from the third generation [of Christians] in Bithynia, up in Pontus and Bithynia, Christians pray to Jesus as if to a God. In other words, praying to Jesus as God is the earliest that Christians do, from very early on. Okay, that’s great, but how do you not have two gods? So, you need to develop language to talk about it.
David Capes
To talk about it, about the oneness of God. At the same time, have a trinity.
George Kalantzis
So what is one? What is three? How do they relate? Does God the Father have a son, produce a son? That’s not a novel idea for the Greeks and the Romans. All their gods are born. They have mothers and fathers. So is that who he is? And if the father birthed the son, who’s the mother? Of course, here we have to talk about Mary. So that basic doctrinal definition, when we come and say, I want to be part of the community, and we say, great, this is what we believe. This is what we believe, and this is what you’re going to be baptized into. “I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible”. What does that mean? And if all things have been created by him, by the father, then what about Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. So basic definitions, that’s going to preoccupy the bulk of our time on the second day.
The same person who came over and said, I want to be part of this community, we say this is what we believe? But we don’t stop there. We also say, and this is how we live our life, which is the fifth part. Which is what are the patterns of spiritual and moral life that Christians had in the same letter, letter 96, Pliny to the Emperor Trajan.
Pliny says this is the total sum of their worship. Remember, this is a pagan speaking right, trying to get it right. But he’s a pagan. He has no idea who the Christians are. It’s the first time he meets Christians. He says they gather on a specific day, early in the morning, they pray antiphonally with one another, in other words, back and forth, back and forth from the Psalms, basically. Then they take an oath with one another, to not commit adultery, to not commit murder, do not commit theft, to return a deposit. Then they go away, and at the end of the day, they gather together again for a common, ordinary meal. Can you imagine if our Sunday services ended with an oath? You turn to your neighbor and you take an oath. Like, this week, this is how I’m going to live my life.
David Capes
I’m not going to murder.
George Kalantzis
I’m not going to commit adultery. We will be having a different kind of discussion.
David Capes
It’d be a different kind of service.
George Kalantzis
So how do these patterns develop? How many times a day do you pray as Christians? What days do you fast? Why do Christians fast on Wednesday and Friday? Good question. Because we’re not Jews who fast on Monday and Thursday. It’s community formative. Rituals are community formative.
David Capes
These are the things that we do that set us apart from other people.
George Kalantzis
A simple thing that Christians did from early on, was to cross themselves. You make the sign of the cross. We don’t do it, or at least Protestants don’t do it. But Christians did because they marked themselves in public. You cross yourself in view of others, right across yourself. Others see you.
David Capes
It’s not something you do in private.
George Kalantzis
That’s right. You don’t do it in private only. You do it in public and people see you. And that has consequence in the late third century.
So we’ll come all the way up to there and see the transformation. We’ll close with the transformation of the Roman world from a pagan world to a Christian world.
David Capes
Where Christianity does become legal at that point.
George Kalantzis
That’s right. It becomes tolerated. It becomes legal, and it becomes the only within the span of 120 years.
David Capes
Which, in historical terms, is very fast. Now, persecution seems to have been an important part of the history. You’re going to be addressing throughout.
George Kalantzis
That’s in the break with Judaism, the response to the Roman world. There are reasons for the persecution. Persecution is not “because I don’t like you”. They are accusations. Christians are accused of being seditious traitors because they don’t take an oath. They don’t pledge allegiance to the Roman state and to the Roman emperor, pure military state, like the Romans are. How do you respond to people who do not pledge allegiance to the Caesar.
David Capes
Or do they want to serve in a military? That became a problem as well.
George Kalantzis
That became a problem, especially when Christians are recognized or claimed to not be Jews. Because Jews were exempted from military service for religious reasons. But that was almost 200 years before. It has a long tradition in the Roman world. But you, your group, your people, say you’re not Jews, so you’re not covered by the exemptions of the Jews.
David Capes
History is just messy, the birth of the Christian church in Palestine in the first century, and then its growth in the next 500 years. It’s just really phenomenal to see the expansion of it but also the things that have to take place in order for it to become a religion that is tolerated and then eventually favored, in the Roman world.
George Kalantzis
Christianity, did not grow by leaps and bounds. For the first almost 250 years, Christianity was roughly around 2% [of the population of the Roman empire].
David Capes
Of the Roman of the Roman population.
George Kalantzis
Yes. And then it starts reaching into the sociologically important 10% and then by the end of the third century, it reaches roughly in the mid 20%.
David Capes
By then, they’re formidable.
George Kalantzis
They’re a formidable group politically. Because if a group that is 2% or less of the population, you don’t know anyone in that group. 2% of 100 people that you meet on the street.
David Capes
Maybe 2 in 100.
George Kalantzis
Maybe two, yes. And how do you recognize them? But at10% you think wait a minute. I know some of these people.
David Capes
Yes, I’ve met them. I think I work with one or two of them.
George Kalantzis
When they reach 25%, they live in your neighborhood. So now you pay attention. So how does that work? The other accusation was that they were atheists, and that is not just simply that Zeus in your heart. For the Romans, the relationship with the gods is sacred and pragmatic. It matters if the gods are turning against you as a person, as a city, as a province, as an empire. You’re done for.
David Capes
Calamity is coming.
George Kalantzis
Calamity is coming. Now flip the equation. When calamity comes. Why does it come? And everybody’s thoughts turn.
David Capes
We have 10% of the people who are Christians, and they’re really messing all of us up.
George Kalantzis
That’s right. So, their atheism puts all of us in danger.
David Capes
But the word atheos doesn’t mean what we mean by it.
George Kalantzis
It means that they don’t worship our gods. They don’t give honor to our gods. Romans don’t care if Jesus is in your heart, or Zeus is in your heart, or nobody’s in your heart. They just don’t care. What they care is that each one of us acts in public according to the rituals of Roman religion.
David Capes
And that ensures the safety of the city and all the people. I’m really fascinated by what we’re going to be doing tonight. I appreciate you coming all this way and sharing with us a little of what, what you know.
George Kalantzis
We’re basically doing 16 weeks in five hours.
David Capes
Okay, let’s see how quickly you can talk and we can listen to George Kalantzis, thanks for being with us today on The Stone Chapel Podcast.
Hi everybody, and welcome to The Stone Chapel Podcast. My name is David Capes. Joining me today is Dr Nancy Dawson, who has been with us before, several times to talk about remarkable women in the Bible, and she’s working on this amazing book called All the Women of the Bible. We’re going to be talking today about one of those women, and her name is Joanna. Dr Nancy Dawson, welcome back to The Stone Chapel Podcast.
Nancy Dawson
Thank you, Dr. Capes!
David Capes
You’ve been here before to talk about the women who are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew. And you’ve also been here before to talk about your book, All the Genealogies of the Bible. You’re working on another one called All the Women of the Bible. Tell us about that project.
Nancy Dawson
There was a theme there. It’s a very exciting project. Broadman and Holman have asked me to write that book. Of course, it covers Old Testament and New Testament women. There’s around 350 women. So it’s a comprehensive, and a little bit daunting task, But very exciting and insightful to see the roles that women have. And why are they there? Why are they mentioned? How do their stories dovetail with what else is going on in the narratives and their overall importance. When you look at a fleshed out view of the women, you see how important they are. They do counter cultural things. I see that they foreshadow many of the characteristics of Christ and also divine characteristics. Through their actions, sometimes words, but definitely through their actions, they do these remarkable things. They are noteworthy.
David Capes
All right, so when should we be able to go to Amazon or go to our local bookstore and pick that up?
Nancy Dawson
It’ll probably be a couple of years. I’m in the middle of the research right now, which I enjoy so much, but getting that down into words and edited takes time.
David Capes
You like the research better or the writing better?
Nancy Dawson
I definitely like the research better. That’s my background but I’ve always been interested in teaching the Bible and writing about men and women.
David Capes
Well, you’re a great teacher. I’ve seen you teach here. I’ve had you come to the course I teach for Truett seminary on the gospels and the book of Acts. You’ve done a great job in those classes. You’re a good teacher as well as a good researcher, and a great writer.
All right, Joanna, let’s talk about Joanna. Joanna is a person that a lot of people may not know very much about. She’s mentioned in passing in some ways, but she’s mentioned in some very important times and places. Let me read one of these texts from the Gospel of Luke. And it’s Luke, chapter eight, verse one.
Soon afterward, he (Jesus) went on through the cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the Good News of the Kingdom of God. And the 12 were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities. Mary called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s household manager. And Susanna and many others who provided for them out of their means.
Nancy Dawson
Remarkable. Number one, you probably haven’t ever heard a sermon about her, but she’s this Galilean aristocratic woman who is healed by Jesus of evil spirits, along with Mary Magdalene and Susanna. And remarkably, she becomes a disciple or follower of Jesus. The text says that she’s the wife of a Herodian official. And of course, they’re talking about Herod Antipas, who was the successor of Herod, the Great, his father. And this is a real poignant place in the text that tells you about her background and what information she might have about that royal court. And then, she becomes this faithful follower throughout Jesus’s ministry, and she’s going to be a witness, along with other women, to the crucifixion and the empty tomb.
David Capes
She’s gone from Galilee at that point, the Galilean ministry, down to Judea, so she’s traveled with them. Is that correct?
Nancy Dawson
Yes. Her name means “God has given graciously”. She’s named after her father, which might be common these days. Her father’s name was John or Yohanan, and this was a common practice in the Second Temple period. There was research done by a wonderful scholar named Tal IIan, who worked on Jewish women in the Greco Roman world and about 3- 4% of the women are called Joanna. It’s a very common name. Around 46% of the women are called Mary. So, this is why you always see terms of disambiguation for the Mary figures, like Mary of Magdala or Mary mother of Jesus.
And some scholars have speculated that she should be equated with the Junia figure of Romans 16. I don’t adhere to that, but some scholars have said this is a possibility, but they’re usually very tentative, in making that association. She’s married to Herod Antipas’ steward named Chuza. He was an appointee of Herod and had a lot of court responsibilities, overseeing his estates, possibly acting like a steward or a guardian over the ones that would be up and coming for inheritance under Herod Antipas.
David Capes
And they lived in Tiberias you said.
Nancy Dawson
They lived in Tiberias, which was on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee. That town was basically built by Herod Antipas around AD 18-20 but noteworthy is it was built over a cemetery, and so this is not something that goes down well.
David Capes
That’s not really kosher! Tiberias is a thriving city today. If you go to Israel, you’ll see it on that western shore.
Nancy Dawson
It’s part of Galilee. It’s one of the major cities. Jesus grew up in this small Nazareth hometown in the Sepphoris area and so that’s the general area. But what we see with Joanna is that she’s definitely from this elite, aristocratic background. She’s Jewish, and whether her husband was a believer or not, is not clear.
David Capes
You mean a believer in Jesus?
Nancy Dawson
In Jesus. She seems to be a type of informant, both to the Herodian court and also to Jesus and his followers of what’s going on. More than once she said Herod Antipas has heard about Jesus, and he’s curious, and he wants to see him. But he wants to see him so that he’ll perform a miracle for them.
David Capes
He wants to see a show, doesn’t he?
Nancy Dawson
Yes, that’s exactly right. But you can see that there’s this definitely negative overlay. She’s from a wealthy background, so has the luxury of the socially elite. Also, this is a highly Romanized place. The Jews do not like the taxation. They do not appreciate any of the political domination, the economic exploitation. Heron Antipas actually had to pay people to come and live in Tiberias.
David Capes
Like Alaska today, you have to pay people to go live up there. There’s a couple of things I found fascinating from this. She’s mentioned specifically, as well as Susanna, as providing for Jesus and his ministry out of their own means. Let’s discuss that part of it.
Nancy Dawson
These women are following Jesus and that’s strange and counter-cultural for the day. You don’t hear about women being in the entourage of John the Baptist. This is something you hear about only with Jesus. So, this is very striking for that time. Jesus invites women and approves of them being a part of a mixed entourage. So that’s very noteworthy.
What you see is that she is supporting Jesus out of her own personal finances. There was a great book written in 2002 by Richard Bauckham called Gospel Women, and he researched where women would have the ability to have discretionary funds that they could use, possibly separate from their husband. Because Chuza may not have been supportive of this. She has at least some disposable funds at her discretion.
And there’s seven sources. One is that you could have inheritance from your father. Usually, this is like the prodigal son. The father is dead, and then you receive it. But there’s also property that can be acquired by a deed of a gift from your father or mother or your husband. That she could use also. There was at the time of marriage, ketubah money, the marriage contract money. That was what her husband would pay to her in case they were ever divorced or something would happen to him.
David Capes
A prenuptial agreement in a way,
Nancy Dawson
Exactly, yes. She could have tapped into that. The dowry that was paid by her husband to her father, sometimes that is given to the daughter.
David Capes
This could be considerable money that you’re talking about.
Nancy Dawson
Yes, or possibly property. Something like Barnabas, who sold his property to support the ministry. And it could be something like this that she availed, this source of funds and monies to give. And this is so consistent with her name which means “God has given graciously”. Then you see that she, in turn, gives graciously. This is a striking aspect of ministry.
David Capes
There’s a lot of talk these days among scholars about benefactors and patrons and those kinds of things. Benefaction is a particular kind of giving, but what I hear you saying is this is not really “benefaction.”
Nancy Dawson
Not according to that traditional female patron benefactor role where a wealthy person is giving money or provisions for a community in return for status or honor. Instead, she actually joins this itinerant band of followers of Jesus. She is not regarded in any special way. We know from the story of the widow with two mites, she gave everything that she had, and so that was what was praised. Not how much you give, but that you give willingly and graciously. And this is what she does.
David Capes
It’s striking to me that she leaves behind a rather a luxurious life for this itinerant life, sleeping in tents and walking lots of distance and probably doing lots of washing clothes at the river, those kinds of things.
Nancy Dawson
Yes. We don’t really know. The text is silent on what these women actually do. But Luke is so poignant in mentioning this; that it’s women who support the ministry. It doesn’t mean that men did not support the ministry, but Luke is making a statement on what is generally true. And so, you see the mention of her in a Luke 8:3 and then we’re going to see that Luke mentions her again in Luke 24. There’s an inclusio, a literary inclusio about Joanna that I find is again, remarkable.
David Capes
Let me read that text. We’re looking at Luke 24:9.
Now at daybreak on the first day of the week Jesus had been discovered as raised from the dead. Then they, (that is these women) who observed this returned from the tomb and announced all these things to the eleven and all the others. The women were Mary Magdalene, Joanna and Mary, the mother of James, and others who accompanied them, also told this to the apostles. But their story, (that is, the women’s story,) seemed like nonsense, so they did not believe them.
What do you learn from that?
Nancy Dawson
The testimony of women was considered unreliable. I think it was J.D. Atkins on one of the Exegetically Speakingpodcasts that said the old lexicons say that sounded like hum-bug. It’s like just an old wives tale. We’re not going to believe that. It’s just a silly tale that women are saying. But what you see is in all the Gospel accounts, it is women who are present at the crucifixion, at his burial, at the empty tomb and at the resurrection. Now John 19:25 also mentions one of the disciples that was at the crucifixion, and that was John the Beloved Disciple, but you don’t hear any mention about men. And again, this is noteworthy. These women have a staying power, a presence, even in these difficult moments. They’re not running away.
They’re not afraid. They’re there at the crucifixion and they’re at a distance, it says. But then at the burial, they’re taking spices to the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea; and they prepared the body, but because it was a Sabbath, it wasn’t completed. It was done in haste.
David Capes
They had to, by the rules the Sabbath, stop what they were doing with the idea that the when the Sabbath is over, the first day of the week has arrived, which was a day of work, then they would go back finish the job.
Nancy Dawson
And so, this is what the women do. They complete this proper burial ritual. They prepare spices and take them in. They complete that process. But when they arrive at the empty tomb, two angels are there, and they say to the women,
“Why are you looking for the living among the dead? He is not here, but he has risen.”
And the next phrase that’s used is,
“Remember how he spoke to you when he was still in Galilee, and He would be crucified and rise on the third day”.
And then they remembered his words.
David Capes
In other words, the women were there when Jesus was saying all this.
Nancy Dawson
Yes. You see that they don’t even have to touch Jesus or eat with Jesus, or remember the scriptures. They remember his words. And this is what we’re all called to do, is recall the scriptures, recall what Jesus has said. And so, they become these incredible eyewitnesses and servants. Joanna left a life of ease. She reminds me a little bit of Old Testament Abigail, who was married to Nabal, the fool. And she leaves that life of luxury and becomes a wife and follower of the Son of David, and so, there’s these interesting parallels.
David Capes
Yes, there are interesting parallels. What’s one thing you take away from Joanna as you think about your own life here in the 21st Century?
Nancy Dawson
What I see is that we always need to be flexible. We need to consider and be ready to leave that life, that maybe we have had, and be willing to follow a new path. And that Jesus can use you with whatever you bring. For Joanna it was possessions, but it was also a kind of fidelity, and this is what we’re called as Christians to do. And Luke probably uses Joanna as a source for information. The material that’s unique to Luke is called the L material in text criticism. She is giving these personal insights. This is what we all bring. It’s a personal insight. God can use you and remake you. And transform you.
David Capes
I like the idea that Luke is naming his sources, throughout the gospel. He does it, I think, with Mary as well, and in an earlier passage. This is a great, great help, honestly. Maybe somebody will feel now they need to do a sermon on Joanna and encourage women and others who are there, who have the ability to give a gracious gift and be a gracious blessing. Dr Nancy Dawson, thanks for being with us today on this podcast.
Nancy Dawson
Thank you so much.
Description
Dr. Nancy Dawson is back on The Stone Chapel Podcast to talk with Dr. Capes about a woman in the New Testament who followed Jesus. Few could name her or tell us anything about her. Her name is Joanna. She came from elite circles to follow the Nazarene in a less than luxurious life. Luke tells us (Luke 8:1-3) that she supported Jesus’ work financially and was a close follower of him.
Master Obi This is Dr. Master Oboleetswe Matlhaope, otherwise known as Dr. Master or Dr. Obi. I am a citizen of the world, so I prefer people to choose among those names, which one is easier for them. You can call me Master. You can call me Obi. I was called Obi from childhood, so I resonate with all those names.
David Capes Dr. Master Obi. Good to see you. Welcome to “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
Master Obi Thank you. Thank you for having me.
David Capes You’re here, studying for a month or more, working on some writing projects.
Master Obi Yes, it’s a fantastic place. Quite an experience. I had not known about this place until I came here. I heard about it when I was scouting around, choosing the best place to do some research and writing. Langham Partnership recommended this place, and there’s no regret for coming here.
David Capes Langham is a good friend of ours and a good partner in ministry. There’s a lot of folks who don’t know you. So for people who don’t know who you are, tell us a little bit about you.
Master Obi I come from Botswana, that is a country right in the center of southern Africa. I come from a town called Ghanzi. It’s in the southwest part of the country. In that region, specifically, I come from a village, it’s a small village, but the best place on the planet.
David Capes What is Botswana known for? Is there a particular export or is there a particular thing that people would say, oh, that’s Botswana.
Master Obi Botswana is well known for diamonds. If you Google it, some of the biggest diamonds were discovered in Botswana, and the other thing that we are well known for is beef. We pride ourselves on beef. I spoke less about beef when I tasted Texas beef!
David Capes Oh, okay, did you like it?
Master Obi I did.
David Capes You did like it. Okay, good, good. So do you have a family?
Master Obi Yes, first, I’m married to a beautiful lady called Boipuso. And the Lord was very generous. God partnered with Boipuso, and they gave me the best children. Prince is my first born, David is my second born, and Abigail is my third born, and my friend, my closest friend.
David Capes And now today, you don’t live in Botswana. You live in Kenya.
Master Obi Yes, by assignment, I live in Kenya, Nairobi. The headquarters of the organization, which I will introduce is in Nairobi, Kenya.
David Capes Tell us a little bit about that organization that you’re working with. You’re the head of that organization.
Master Obi Yes, I am the Secretary General of the Association of Evangelicals in Africa, AEA. This is an umbrella organization for all Evangelicals and Pentecostals in the continent of Africa, all together at a continental level.
David Capes Now this is a voluntary association, right? People connect because they want to connect.
Master Obi It is a voluntary association, but it’s an umbrella association, meaning we are in 51 of the 54 countries of Africa. And in each country, you have an umbrella body. Now in that particular country, Evangelicals and Pentecostals come together under that alliance of fellowship. And then at the continental level, those alliances are called the Association of Evangelicals in Africa. Besides the umbrella national alliances, we also house para church organizations like World Vision, Compassion International, Wycliffe, Africa Enterprise and many other associate members.
David Capes What is the job of the Secretary General?
Master Obi The Association of Evangelicals is structured under a board, but the members of this board are in different countries. Because the board is interspersed like that, the board appoints a Secretary General to run the organization in the interim between board meetings. The Secretary General then reports to the board.
David Capes How often does the board gather to meet?
Master Obi The constitution provides that the board meets once a year.
David Capes Is that in Kenya, or is that some other place?
Master Obi The board meets anywhere, and they dispose of the mandate of the board, as per the Constitution. And then from there, they go back to their countries. The Secretary General runs the organization, makes decisions, forms partnerships, creates programs. Then they get reports together for a board update once a year.
David Capes So do you also run the board as the Secretary General. Or is there somebody else who runs the board.
Master Obi In terms of governance, the board is under the Chair of the Board.
David Capes Oh, I see. People don’t realize how large Africa is. It’s a large continent, and I describe it by saying you could put three United States in Africa and still have room left over. And there’s a billion people in Africa. How many of those would be Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians? Do you have a sense of that number?
Master Obi Yes, the commonly held statistic will put the number of Christians over 700 million. In terms of our constituency, the common statistics says there are 182 million evangelicals, and 202 million Pentecostals.
David Capes So, Pentecostalism is very strong in Africa?
Master Obi If you add 182 million, plus 202 million, that’s the Association of Evangelicals. That’s 380 million, so it’s quite a big chunk of the Christian body in Africa.
David Capes You guys need to send missionaries to North America. You need to send some people over to help us over here, because you’ve got a lot more Christians over there than we do.
Master Obi Yes, true. But before we do that, we have a bit of work that we need to do. Because the understanding of mission needs to be deconstructed and reconstructed in our context. Because what we are seeing when Africans go elsewhere in the name of missions, they go after fellow Africans. So, you see Africans in the United States, and you look at the membership of their churches, it’s Africans. And they go back and they say, we are missionaries. We are in missions. So that’s why I say we need to reconstruct the understanding of missions.
When Western missionaries went to Africa, for me, I see purity of missions. Here are people of a different color going to people of another color, and they are so focused in reaching these people, even though they have no commonalities, no language, no cultural commonality. But they did everything it took to reach these people. The Africans who are doing missions outside Africa, need to understand missions and that it is not an easy task.
They need to therefore be properly equipped mentally and spiritually to know what they are going to do, so that they go and reach America. And America is diverse. It is Hispanic, it’s black, it’s white. You can’t have a missionary church in America which is only black. That’s why I think we need a bit of work in Africa for our missionaries to understand that as Africans now we are tasked by our Lord to reach the world.
David Capes Talk about leadership of churches in Africa. Are there enough pastors and church leaders in Africa and church?
Master Obi We don’t have enough church leaders in Africa. I can tell you, the church in Africa is growing exponentially, and the growth outnumbers the pastors. We have a lot of those that are genuinely called to the pastoral work but are not trained. So training is a need that is a challenge. We have serious growth, and very few trained leaders to match the growth.
We will not be able to do that with formal education only. We need to now be intentional with non-formal theological education, and that’s something that we are taking seriously. We have quickly put together a curriculum, a non-formal theological education curriculum. There are some organizations in the continent who are also doing non-formal theological education, but even that needs to be a bit organized in terms of standards. So, you have all these people doing the non-formal theological education which does not have standardized, verified curricula.
We have an accrediting body as AEA. Now this is the body that does accreditation of theological education in Africa. For many years, this body only had formal theological education standards, but now I have tasked them to develop a non-formal theological education curriculum standard. Anybody else in Africa who is providing non-formal theological education can subject their curriculum to those standards, and then we can move towards standardized curriculum in Africa.
David Capes That will just raise the quality of the thinking and the theologizing and the preaching and the teaching on the continent altogether,
Master Obi Precisely, in order to match the growth.
David Capes What’s interesting to me, Master Obi is the fact that we have more schools here in the United States, but fewer students. We have more seminaries and more schools that could give a very formal theological education, but those schools are shrinking. But over in Africa, you need more schools. You need more teachers. You need more people. People who are raised up within the African context, who can teach within that context, teaching the languages, teaching the cultures, teach against that, and show how the gospel really fits and works in Africa.
Master Obi That is very, very true. It would be great if we can transplant some of these seminaries and put them around intentionally. This one in the east, this one in the west, so that we can meet the need! But having said that, it is true. I tell my people that we need a curriculum that is contextualized for Africa, that meets the needs of Africa. Because African church leaders are dealing with people who have a background of witchcraft. They are dealing with people with a background of religious extremism. You are dealing with a continent of people that have an environment that is infested with corruption and so on and so on. We need a curriculum that is tailor made to produce a leader equipped to handle people like this.
David Capes Because they’re going to encounter people like this?
Master Obi Yes, so that we can then also transform Africa. As AEA, we have a long-term vision: the Africa that God wants. For us to achieve that we need leaders who are trained to transform Africa.
David Capes And if you were to tell our listeners one thing they need to do to pray for Africa, what would that be?
Master Obi The church in Africa is growing. It should continue to grow. One thing that we need to pray for is, in as much as there is horizontal growth, we also need the vertical growth. The deep-rooted Christian faith and also a faith that is connected to heaven. So, we need to pray for numerical growth, as well as quality growth. Secondly, we need to pray for persecution. Christians in Africa, in a number of countries, are going through horrible persecution.
David Capes Yes, we hear about that on a weekly basis.
Master Obi We need to pray for the brothers and sisters who are going through those persecutions. We need to pray for our brothers and sisters under repressive regimes. There are countries where my brothers and your brothers are in hiding. In order for me to meet them, I go through a third person. I talk to this person, and then he will talk to one person, who will then talk to them to say the Secretary General wants to meet you. They will pick a date, they will have to go to a place which is safe, and then they can make a video call. It’s so emotional, and in most cases, they go with pseudo names, and I have to protect them. I can’t even put their names on the website, because once they are exposed, they go to jail and they disappear for forever.
David Capes Boko Haram seems to be one of these groups who is not officially part of the government, but they’re still persecuting. You do have governments who are oppressive and would want to jail Christian brothers and sisters.
Master Obi We have governments which are repressive. You talk of Eritrea, and it’s not a secret, and they should know, if they hear my voice, that we know our brothers and sisters are persecuted and do not have the freedom of worship. Our brothers and sisters are hiding. They have been killed. They are refugees in neighboring countries. So, it’s not just the jihadist, it’s repressive regimes such as those. And then you have jihadists around the Sahel. Sometimes the jihadists take advantage of weak states. When the government is weak, that’s an opportune space for extremists. They find Christians worshiping. They kill as many as possible so that particular church will close. This is reality. This is happening, and these are Christians like you and me, killed for what they believe, Jesus Christ.
This is the reality of Africa. So when you pray for the Christians in Africa, the persecuted church, they should know it’s real. We need resilience. Northern Africa was Christian. But no more, and that’s what they want, to displace Christians in as many places as possible. They are trying to break the Sahel line, and that’s a highly contested line now, of course. Now there’s sporadic extremism, even down south in the southern part of Africa, in Mozambique, Cabo Delgaldo. Already we put together an awareness summit, and I brought people from the Cabo Delgado just to tell their story. And it was horrible what they were telling us. In one example, a pastor is beheaded right in front of his wife. As that was not enough, the wife is carrying a child in her arms. The child was taken from the mother and chocked in front of the mother. The child was then cooked and the mother was told to eat her child. This is more than barbarism. This is more than inhumanity. This is evil. And this is not something that happened in the 18th century, in the 19th century. It is now.
David Capes It’s happening now. It’s happening in the world of AI and in the world of the internet.
Master Obi I’ve been to Niger, I have met my brothers and sisters of the capital, because they were given an ultimatum to denounce Christ, or on the following day, we are coming for you and your family, And the only thing these Christians could do was to run. I visited where they are living in plastic shelters. And these were decent people who had homes and families, but they had to flee to these inhuman shelters because of their faith. And it’s not only in those countries that I mentioned. In the Central African Republic, there is a displaced Christian community. I was in the Democratic Republic of Congo, eastern region, and we do what we can with what we have. Sometimes we feel that we are doing nothing.
I went into this makeshift rehabilitation center for child soldiers. My eyes can’t leave this little boy in front of me. I’m addressing them, you know, giving them encouragement, and motivation. We are teaching them upholstery to give them alternative skills so that they can have a way of living without a gun in their hand. My eyes cannot leave this boy, and I’m told he was a child soldier for seven years. And I’m trying to figure out how young he was when he began to be a child soldier. I broke. I literally broke. I held that boy in my left hand as I was speaking to his peers and others. I couldn’t leave him. I loved him, and I believe that was the love of God. I had $50 in my pocket. I took that $50 and put it in the hand of this boy. I didn’t know what else to do. This is the heart of God, the God that you and I serve. This is how God feels about these brothers and sisters going through difficult situations.
Because this was just a makeshift upholstery rehabilitation facility, where we are trying to give them this equipment and it’s not up to standard, but it’s what we could give. And the following year, when the war was raging, and the rivals were closing in on Goma, the influx of women and children was just overwhelming. The General Secretary of our national alliance in the Democratic Republic had to take a bus that time. I was in neighboring Rwanda. In the morning, I had a knock on my door. When I opened, it’s a man and five others, And he says, Dr Master, we need help. The premises of the Alliance are filled with human beings. My own house is filled. We don’t have any more space. We need help. Give a voice on our behalf.
Fortunately, from nowhere, I had a thought of Barnabas. When I called, they were very kind. What can we do? I said, let’s build a school so that these children can continue their lives when they find themselves with nowhere to go. They sent for $48,000 and we were able to put together a facility for these children. And we were able to also buy sewing machines for the women because they have lost their source of livelihoods. We bought 100 sewing machines for these women to train on how to sew so that they can sell what they make, and have a source of living. You know, just humanity, being human. So these are some of my experiences on the ground, and they don’t end there. There are many examples of what is happening in Africa.
David Capes Well, the next time you come back to the Lanier Theological Library, we’re going to want to hear about more of these stories. Because they’re fascinating, they’re heartbreaking, but they will cause us, I think, to pray. To pray for you as the leader, but also to pray for all those who are facing the kinds of struggles that you’ve described today. Dr, Master Obi. Thank you for being with us today on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
Master Obi Thank you. Thank you for having me and thanks to our listeners.
Baruch Kvasnica My name is Baruch Brian Kvasnica, and I’m president of Jerusalem Seminary.
David Capes Dr. Kvasnica, good to see you, Baruch.
Baruch Kvasnica Good to be here.
David Capes Thanks for being with us. We’re here together face to face, which is always good. Now you’re president of Jerusalem Seminary. We’re going to find out more about that in a minute, but I want to find out about you now. For those who don’t know you, who is Baruch Kvasnica?
Baruch Kvasnica I was born in Michigan and raised mainly in Michigan, as well as the Philippines and Papua New Guinea, where I graduated as a Wycliffe MK. I loved my time there as a kid, growing up with a broader mission than just a local church, but also the whole world. I went from Ukarumpa High School in Papua, New Guinea, to Houghton University in Western New York. Knowing that I had Jewish heritage, that idea expanded in college, getting to know a person who was born and raised in Israel. And that piqued my interest.
I really wanted to study early Christianity in the land of the Bible. I went there in the summer of 1994, and I couldn’t believe how much I didn’t know. I thought I knew my Bible well, and then I went to the land. It showed all these places where I had gaps that I hadn’t focused on, or I didn’t understand, or hadn’t paid attention. And I just ate that up. I jumped on an Anglican priest course at Tantur with Jim Fleming and Kenneth Bailey. And I couldn’t believe that. It was amazing. I studied under Petra Heldt at Hebrew University on Eastern Christianity. As a history and religion major, I thought I knew my history of Christianity, but I didn’t know it very well.
David Capes Now you’d already graduated from Houghton?
Baruch Kvasnica No, this was between my junior and senior year. I was there just for nine weeks during my summer break. I went back to Houghton and became pastor of a little country church, as well as finishing up my honors project on John Wesley’s Religious Epistemology. I applied to different seminaries, and I got a full-ride offer to an Ivy League school. But I decided not to take it because my life was influenced so powerfully by those nine weeks in the summer of 1994. I went back [to Israel] after Houghton and started studying religious studies, comparative religions between early Judaism and early Christianity.
David Capes Where were you studying at that point?
Baruch Kvasnica At Hebrew University of Jerusalem. The Harvard of Israel.
David Capes Our good friend, Emmanuel Tov, teaches there. He’s great.
Baruch Kvasnica Yes, he’s been my neighbor down the street for the past 10 years.
David Capes So, are you married?
Baruch Kvasnica I’ve been married very, very happily for 24 years to Shoshi, my wife. She was born and raised there in Israel. She’s a messianic Jewish gal.
David Capes So, how’d you get the name Baruch?
Baruch Kvasnica Baruch has been my name for the past 15 years. I was walking one day in 1998 with my dad, and he said, if I ever immigrate to Israel, I think I’d be Baruch instead of Bob. And then when I became a permanent resident there, I said, hey, this is a good opportunity for me to recognize my latent Jewish heritage. I’m still a believer. I’m a Christian. I’m the same person, but I’ve seen a lot of Jewish believers assimilate to the point that their Jewishness is no longer realized. Statistically, two to three generations after a person becomes a believer, their children don’t understand themselves as being Jewish anymore.
David Capes Though by heritage and by blood, they are.
Baruch Kvasnica Yes, so I thought this is a way to reaffirm what my dad felt, and who my grandfather was. I feel like I’m blessed. My wife and I have seven children, and we’re so thankful. We’re living in the land which is a blessing and a challenge. Baruch means “blessed, blessing.”
David Capes You’re president of Jerusalem Seminary. Tell us a little bit about it. What is its mission?
Baruch Kvasnica When I went first in 1994, I couldn’t find a place where I could do a Master’s of Divinity in English. I needed that to be ordained. I looked for different ways to do that. I couldn’t find an easy way to do it. Later on, I could do it online. But I didn’t really want to do it online. I wanted to do it in person, if possible, or some component in person.
So, I thought, there’s not a seminary in the land of the Bible. Why not create one? That’s the short story. The longer story is that my life was so transformed by being in the land and learning Hebrew, and not just Greek. I learned Greek too, and that’s awesome, but knowing both Greek and Hebrew really impacted my faith. It rooted me in the land and history of the people of Israel, that strengthened my faith. It challenged it a little bit too. And I thought, God, this is so amazing. I want to share this with other people. I started guiding and teaching pastors and academics and lay people. In 1998 I saw that it was also beneficial for them. I started training Bible translators in Hebrew.
I saw the impact that Hebrew in the land had, both in my life and for others. I thought, wow, everyone going into ministry should have the opportunity to spend some amount of time with the right people in the land of the Bible. And so that’s really the driving passion of why Jerusalem Seminary exists, to give that opportunity that I had, that I hope many, many thousands of others can have in the coming years.
David Capes Now, are you an online seminary, or are you residential? How does that work?
Baruch Kvasnica We started in 2018.
David Capes Okay, so at this point you’re only seven years old.
Baruch Kvasnica Yes, and this is just before the pandemic. Our first school of Hebrew was founded in 2018, and this was geared towards Israelis, to have them learning Biblical Hebrew in a lived or communicative manner. Israelis know a little bit of biblical Hebrew, because modern Hebrew is not too different. The first 1,000 words are about 88% the same vocabulary. But beyond that, the poetry and a lot of the syntax is different.
We wanted to train them, and not just teach them Biblical Hebrew, but teach them how to teach in this lived, expressive, spoken way. They became the core of our teachers, both residentially, abroad and online. What we’re doing still is training Israelis to learn how to teach Biblical Hebrew, and they do that by going to Mongolia, Nigeria, Togo, Myanmar, Grand Rapids. Two by two, we send these Israelis, these Messianic Jews who know Biblical Hebrew inside and out and express that. All of the learning is done in that manner. That’s our School of Hebrews, founded in 2018.
In 2021 we started the School the Bible, which started right in the midst of the pandemic. We started that completely online. We were able to have some short-term courses come in 2022 and 2023. And we’re looking to expand that. But our School of the Bible, started in 2021, and this is more on a BA level, more for enrichment. This fall, just a month or two ago, we started our School of Graduate Studies, and this is our first degree, a MA in Biblical studies.
David Capes In these other programs, you don’t earn a degree. They are more of a certificate program. But the graduate studies, you’re offering the full degree.
Baruch Kvasnica Yes, that’s right. But our certificates are not lightweight, meaning that almost half of our students are Bible translators. Because I’ve been training Bible translators in the land of the Bible for about 15-20, years. They know about us, and they know, by God’s grace and for His glory, how incredible our School of Hebrew is. They are coming to learn online and in person in August. For example, every August for the past eight years, and diaspora Hebrew month-long intensives, we call them. So even though they’re certificates, they’re actually very serious.
David Capes Yes, they can be. This is fascinating! All right, so if people have heard something today and they want to connect with you, how would they get connected with Jerusalem Seminary and you as President?
Baruch Kvasnica Well, jerusalemseminary.org is our website, and that has our course catalog.
Baruch Kvasnica Yes. They can see the course catalog and can register for both individual classes. They can take them for credit. They can take them for audit. There are also certificate programs. And there’s also the new MA in Biblical Studies that requires them to be in the country twice. So, everything can be done online, except for two residential intensives in the land.
David Capes Are those one week, or two weeks?
Baruch Kvasnica Two weeks.
David Capes Two weeks each. Do you have residences that they can occupy?
Baruch Kvasnica Yes, as soon as we received money, that was given from here in Houston, back in 2017. As soon as I knew about this seed money, I immediately thought of the building that we’re in. It’s the Alliance Center. It’s where a number of institutions have been born, and it has eight dorm rooms. It has a beautiful chapel, it has classrooms, has offices. It’s right downtown in central Jerusalem.
David Capes Oh, wow. So, this is not tin he Old City.
Baruch Kvasnica It’s about a seven-minute walk from the Old City. On Prophet Street. It’s even biblical!
David Capes Nevi’im the prophets! So, people can get to know the city of Jerusalem. Do they go up to the Galilee, over to the Dead Sea, and Jericho? Places like that.
Baruch Kvasnica Yes, we often start our short-term courses down in the Negev just like the patriarchs and the wanderings in the wilderness and the manna. And then we move up to the Galilee at some point for a couple days or so and see the coast. Then focus at least half the time in Jerusalem. So yes, it’s definitely an active field trip and lecture combination for our short-term courses.
David Capes How has the war affected you and your institution?
Baruch Kvasnica It’s been a long journey. Not only the war, but COVID was tough for everyone. Israel tried to be really tough.
David Capes Everything was shut down.
Baruch Kvasnica Yes. Then the war has persisted in bringing challenges. It’s been a very difficult psychological challenge. We’ve had staff that have been involved in serving. They’ve been pulled out for reserves because about 75% of our staff are local, so that makes us a little unique too. There’s a number of institutions in the land. God is building us in such a way that we can be there, long term. We pray, so that we can have a lasting effect.
Some of my children are needing to serve because that’s required by law, boys and girls. That clipped our wings as far as bringing students in the land, but we’re looking forward to a new era. Now that there’s greater peace, we have a number of seminaries and Bible colleges interested in coming back to the land. Having short-term courses or a semester abroad or a year-long program. We’re looking forward to the future.
David Capes I know some of the people who teach for you, but for our listeners, tell us a few people that teach for you. If I were to come and study, besides working with you and learning Hebrew, who could I study with?
Baruch Kvasnica We have Dr. Gerald McDermott, who’s been with us from the beginning, Dr. Petra Heldt, who was my first teacher in Hebrew University in 1994 and she is amazing. We’re trying to get her to write a book. We have Randall Buth, who’s doing some of the lecturing for the gospels course. We have Dr. Halver Ronning, who has been here. Nick Aaronson is coming on board. Walter Kaiser is on our Advisory Council.
David Capes What does the future look like over the next three to five years?
Baruch Kvasnica We are looking forward to having hundreds of students come each year. Our goal is 1,000 a year in about 5-10 years, but looking for hundreds to come and be in the land or online. We have about 250 students now, each year, but only about 20% of them are in the country. We want to just expand that from 250-1,000.
David Capes Your students are from different countries?
Baruch Kvasnica Yes. This semester, I think we have 14 different countries. Last semester, we had 85 from 21 countries. This is mainly because we have so many Bible translators. But the wonderful thing about Bible translators is, often, they’re not just translating Bible. They’re also preaching, yeah. So we get two for one, preachers and Bible translators at the same time,
David Capes All right, once again, for those who want to be in touch with you. Maybe they feel like they want to donate some money, or maybe they feel they’d like to study in the land. I’d like to go over there for two weeks and have some time or take a short-term course or be involved in a program of study. How would they do that?
Baruch Kvasnica They can connect us with us at jerusalemseminary.org. They can write, email, call. If they’d like to donate, there’s a “Give” page. I totally believe that this is God’s doing. That the Kingdom needs to advance in the land of the Bible. Meaning that pastors can be rejuvenated. Seminarians can be rooted in the land and will have a much more fruitful ministry by being connected to the land and language of the Bible. If people would want to join what God is doing at Jerusalem Seminary, feel free to check us out at jerusalemseminary.org.
David Capes That sounds great. Dr. Kvasnica, thanks for being with us today on “The Stone Chapel Podcast.”
A Word in Edgewise 
You must be logged in to post a comment.