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God Hasn’t Forgotten You with Robert Morgan

To hear the podcast click here.  

David Capes 

Hi everybody. Welcome back to the Stone chapel podcast. My name is David Capes. If this is your first time to hear the podcast, please share it with a friend. We hope you will enjoy the conversation that I’m going to have in just a minute with Dr. Robert Morgan. Now, Dr. Morgan has been with us before, but it’s been a few years ago, and he’s written a number of books since then; but we’re going to be talking about a special one today. He is an associate pastor in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. He is also a podcaster himself, and he does a variety of things in terms of teaching the Bible as an expositor of the Bible. 

And the other thing that you need to know is he is quite a prolific author. In fact, his books have sold 5 million copies. Now, for an academic, if we sell 500 copies, we’re happy. So, 5 million copies! Wow! Now one of those books we talk about around here a lot, and it’s called The Red Sea Rules. Mark Lanier, our founder, buys these by the truckload, and he gives them away. He loves this book. It’s a great book. The subtitle is The Same God Who Led You In, Will Lead You Out. It’s a great, great book. It’s short; you can read it in probably an afternoon or maybe an evening. And he also wrote another book, Then Sings My Soul. He’s got a new one he just told me about, and we’ll be saying something about that as well in connection with a movie. Dr. Robert Morgan, thanks for being with us today on The Stone Chapel Podcast. 

Robert Morgan 

I love being with you. I told you off air that your podcast, this one, and Exegetically Speaking, are my favorite podcasts. I look forward to every new episode dropping, and so it’s an honor to be with you, David. 

David Capes 

It’s an honor, really, to speak with you. And I’m looking forward to you getting back to the Lanier library soon to speak, maybe to some of our certificate students. Now we’re here today to talk about your book. God Hasn’t Forgotten You, and the subtitle is 24 Remarkable Ways God Is Working in You and through You. It’s a terrific book. Now, I was supposed to write this book. I don’t know if you knew this, but I could only come up with 23 ways. And so, I think you ended up writing it because you had 24 ways! I think you ended up getting the nod from the publisher. Just kidding, of course. 

It’s a terrific book, and I love what you’ve done with it. It’s a meditation throughout. It’s a devotional kind of book. It’s a scriptural thing, very deeply, and I love the way it begins. Let me just read it. I’m just going to ask you to comment on it because it grabbed me immediately. And it’s things that I hadn’t thought about. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 2 – 

“So, the blazing sun had fallen over the Negev desert for 146,100 days without a single word from the God of Israel. Four centuries had passed since the last inspired Hebrew prophets, Zechariah and Malachi had discharged their ministries. In the Judean Hills lived one elderly couple who had not lost faith. And that was Zechariah and Elizabeth.” 

That’s a great beginning. How did you come up with that? What was the inspiration? 

Robert Morgan 

Well, maybe three or four years ago, I wanted to prepare a series of Christmas sermons. And we always go right to Luke two. And I thought, I’m just going to begin here. At the beginning of Luke, we have that marvelous preamble or prologue that Luke has in verses 1-4. And then the more I studied Zechariah and Elizabeth, the more astounded I was at how little I really knew about them. And I just got into that chapter. It’s a very long chapter, and there’s a lot of details given. It’s a very vivid chapter, a very picturesque chapter. And David, everything began with them. Before there was Joseph and Mary and baby Jesus, there was Zechariah and Elizabeth and Baby John, and the whole program began with them. 

The Old Covenant began with an old couple who couldn’t have a baby, but they were given a miraculous son. The new covenant story of redemption began with an old couple who couldn’t have a baby but were given a miraculous son. God began everything over again, and as I read through this chapter, there were so many transferable lessons there. This is not an academic book. This is a book of taking Bible lessons that are just beneath the surface and transferring them to our lives. And I just fell in love with Zechariah and Elizabeth and the story of Mary. His visit and the ritual of the temple when Zachariah saw the angel. All of it is fascinating, and we overlook it because we jump right to chapter two and go to the story of Bethlehem. 

David Capes 

You know, we do that. It’s very interesting because, as you write somewhere in the book, you say you never begin a book with Chapter 2. You always start with chapter 1. Why have we leapt over that? I have the same feeling when people skip over the genealogy in Matthew, because I think there’s a lot of things beneath the surface in that genealogy. 

Robert Morgan 

Yes, yes, there are jewels just under the surface on every pathway of Scripture, and if you don’t look down and scrape a little of the dirt away, you’ll miss them. It’s just absolutely astounding how much there is. Here is an example in the English Old Testament. The last book is Malachi, and the last thing Malachi says is, and I’m paraphrasing, but I will send you the prophet Elijah, who will turn the hearts of children back to their parents. 

Then we have 400 years of silence and the next word, the next canonical or inspired Word, the next infallible Word from God, is what Gabriel said in that temple. And Gabriel’s first words were, I’m going to give you a son who will be like the prophet Elijah, who will turn the hearts of children back to their parents. The last words that God spoke in Malachi and the first words that He spoke in the New Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 3 – 

Testament era are like lynch pins on a train. They just link everything together. God is amazing in the way he has these patterns of Scripture. 

David Capes 

Yes, it is amazing. And to think that 146,000 days had gone by. Four centuries, and you stopped to do the math, apparently on that well. 

Robert Morgan 

It’s very similar to our own day. During that time period, there was a lot of great literature being produced. The second temple literature and the rabbis were teaching and preaching and writing, and the scrolls were just like today. There’s a lot of books and wonderful material. And the Lanier Library has, I don’t know how many thousands of volumes of things that have been written in the last 2000 years. 

But none of it is inspired. Nothing that I write is inspired unless I’m quoting the scripture in what I’m saying. So, there was a lot of great literature being produced in the Second Temple period, but God had not spoken in that prophetic or inspired way since Malachi. Until Gabriel showed up, and then everything started up again, as though it had never stopped. And it went on from there. And an old couple in the Judean Hills who thought their lives were behind them, became the trigger points for everything God was going to do now in the future, through his program of redemption for the world. 

David Capes 

I think sometimes, Robert, that we neglect John the Baptist as we just skip over him as well. He was there. He did important work. John had a tremendous influence, didn’t he? 

Robert Morgan 

He did. He was the revival preacher of his day. This carpenter in Nazareth heard about the revival taking place down in the Judean desert near the Jordan river and the Jericho or in that region. And he went down, and that’s where he was anointed by the Holy Spirit and assumed the role of Messiah. Later Paul, when he was in Ephesus, they hadn’t heard of Jesus, but they knew John, so he was a sensation in his days. 

And one thing that I speculate about some here in the book is because Zechariah was a priest and Elizabeth was the daughter and the wife of a priest. John had priestly legacy. He was in the priestly line, but we don’t know that he served in the temple in Jerusalem. He seemed to have been set aside to serve the living temple, and he had an extraordinary ministry there, I think, in that priestly role of ushering in the ministry of the one who said, destroy this temple, and in three days I’ll rebuild it. There’s just a lot beneath the surface of Luke 1 that I haven’t gotten to the bottom of. But I went as far down as I could without losing consciousness. 

David Capes 

You ended up writing 24 chapters, and all of it really is a meditation on Luke 1 which is brilliant, and you pull out so many things, and the way that you translated Zechariah’s name is the title of the book. God hasn’t forgotten you. That’s essentially what his name means. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 4 – 

Robert Morgan 

Yes, and the story, the real theme of the book, I think, is that we are more useful to God now than we’ve ever been. Zechariah and Elizabeth were described as being very old, and Zachariah said gingerly about Elizabeth, she is well up in years. And they probably thought, like we’re prone to do, we’re going to be faithful until we die, but we don’t have a lot of time left. But what God wanted to do with their lives was just beginning. 

They were more useful than they had ever been before, and I think that’s true for you and me and for all of us, regardless of our age. But especially as we get a little older, our society tends to tell us that we’re not as useful as we once were. But I think what this chapter tells us is that we are more useful to the Lord now than we’ve ever been before, because of the growth and the grace and the experience and the maturing that happens over the course of years. 

David Capes 

Talk pastorally for a second, because, and I’m curious what your thoughts are. How common do you see this feeling or this sense that people have for whatever reason, that God has forgotten them, or that they have been put on a shelf. Do you see that a lot? 

Robert Morgan 

Yes, yes. People are very stressed. They’re beaten down by life. There’s a lot of pressure. Everybody seems to be too busy. They’re overwhelmed. And you know, David, the thing that has made the difference in my whole life? I was taught when I was 19 years old to have my daily quiet time, to wake up in the morning, to meet with the Lord, to pray with him, and to study the Bible. And I find that is, to me, the source of all of my strength. 

I think Zechariah and Elizabeth did something similar to that, but when people are so busy, they don’t have time for that, or they haven’t been taught, and they’re just overwhelmed with life. They think that everybody has forgotten them, but particularly they don’t have a sense that God is watching over them, caring for them, that he’s got a plan for their lives. That he wants to use them now more than ever, and they feel a lack of purpose or a lack of fulfillment. And I think this is endemic in our times. 

David Capes 

Yes, I think it is too, for all sorts of reasons. One of those reasons you discuss here is the reason of grief in chapter 4. I know you’ve had your own bit of grief that you have been working through as have I. I’ve told you a little bit of our story of losing our son at 36 years old. But I didn’t realize that Streams In the Desert was 100 years old. I needed to say that because it’s a great book and an important, influential book. But one of the things that you cite here is a statement made by the author, Letty Cowman. 

“It is such a comfort to drop the tangles of life into God’s hands and leave them there.” 

Robert Morgan Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 5 – 

Wonderful, it really is. I know she and her husband were very, very involved in ministry overseas as missionaries. And when he developed heart issues, they had to come home. He was hardly able to do anything. They both were discouraged and depressed. But Letty, began clipping out things that would encourage them from sermons and newspapers, and she would read them to him, and if they really helped them, she would set them aside. And that later became this book, Streams In the Desert. 

To me, that is one of the best quotes in the whole book. We have to take the tangles of life and leave them in God’s hands. There is a sense in which we do need sometimes to let go and to let God. It’s like when Jacob said about Benjamin. “Take him on. And if I am bereaved, I am bereaved.” It’s like when Job said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust him”. 

There comes a time when we just say, Lord, I cannot solve this problem. I don’t know if it’s ever going to be solved. I’m just going to trust you anyway. But for John and Elizabeth, it was their inability to have a child they had prayed about over and over and over again, and now they were old, and the child had never come. And yet, what Gabriel said was, Zechariah, your prayers are answered. Your wife will have a son. He was so startled that he couldn’t believe it! 

David Capes 

He couldn’t speak for how long? 

Robert Morgan 

That’s right, nine months. It was a great gift to Elizabeth. 

David Capes 

I think it probably was! I think that you have done a marvelous job in setting the tone to help people deal with whatever life has given them, whatever kind of situation. It could be grief, it could be the sense that they are getting older and they feel like God doesn’t need them or my best days are behind me. I think at 70, there’s many good days left. What do you think? 

Robert Morgan 

I think so. I’m 73 and 5/6, almost 74 and I feel like, Lord willing and if he is merciful, my best days of ministry and work are ahead of me. I think that with aging, it’s a matter of attitude more than arteries, and we just keep going on. I don’t think we should ever stop in our service for the Lord. You know, David, there’s a verse that says, “The eyes of the Lord range to and fro throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully devoted to him”. And at a particular point in time, the eyes of the Lord ranged to and fro the hills of Judah to find an older couple who were faithful and whose hearts were devoted to the Lord. And he found this couple, Zechariah and Elizabeth, and what he did with them has changed history. I just think we need to keep going and rejoice and praise the Lord every step of the way. 

David Capes 

Yes, and good things will follow. Well, my sense is that you have the spiritual gift of teaching and also encouragement. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 6 – 

Robert Morgan 

I think the same for you. I really do. You’re a great encouragement to me. David, thank you so much. 

David Capes 

You’ve got a new book about the origin of hymns as well. 

Robert Morgan 

Yes, it’s called The Origin of Hymns. When the movie, “I Can Only Imagine 2,” was being filmed partly in Nashville, I was asked to have prayer over the cast and crew one morning. Then I stayed to watch some of the filming. And the producer came up, and he has read my books, and wanted to talk. And we talked a long time, and we talked about the hymns. “I Can Only Imagine 2” has a lot to do with the story of “It Is Well with My Soul.” 

So later he called me and he said, you know, all the way through the movie, the main character, Tim Timmons is reading a book. It’s a prop in the movie, but it’s called The Origin of Hymns, and I would just love it if we could have that book to go along with the movie when it’s released. So, we said, I think we can do it. We curated a few things from my Then Sings My Soul Series. I created some other fresh material. We put it together in a beautiful, little easy to read paperback, and it is full of information about the classic, timeless hymns that have existed ever since the first one at the Red Sea. 

In Exodus 15, the Israelites begin singing and praising God for delivering them from Egypt. And the history of our hymns is like sinking a shaft into Christian history and studying it from age to age and singing all the way as we go. And this book has been in the top 200 to 300 of all of the books in the US for the last couple of weeks because of the movie. Not a lot to do with me, but people watch the movie, and they see it and they want to get so we’re very grateful. I’ll send you a copy. 

David Capes 

Thanks, I’d love to see it, and I’d love to have you back to talk a little bit about that, because there’s some great stories there that we need to know. And I think there is, as you and I’ve talked before, a kind of a revival of those legacy hymns, those hymns that have been around for some cases, hundreds of years. 

Robert Morgan 

Yes. They are objective. They are theologically sound. They focus more on God than they do on us. They direct our attention upwards, “immortal, invisible, God only wise and light inaccessible, hid from our eyes”. We need to sing songs that have deep theology. In fact, a good hymn is simply singable theology. It’s a good Bible study set to music that lets us sing and meditate on the words. I’m a champion. I love the new music. I’m not anti-new music at all, but I’m just not in favor of excluding all of the hymns that people have been singing for hundreds of years. 

David Capes 

We’ve got to get you back here to talk more about that on another occasion. Dr Robert Morgan, great to see you. Thanks for being with us today on The Stone Chapel Podcast. Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 7 – 

Robert Morgan 

My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, David. 

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What Christians Ought to Believe with Michael Bird

To hear the podcast click here.

David Capes 

All right, we’ve got people listening to this podcast that are in every part of the world, and they may not use creeds in their church. Let’s start with a very basic question. What exactly is a creed? 

Michael Bird 

A creed is normally something that the ancient churches put down to express and define its faith. Both the content of their faith, but also the boundaries of their faith. We are the people who are committed to this articulation of the gospel, this story. We believe these truths about God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. The creeds put it down in a simple way that can be understood, can be learned, can be repeated in the context of worship, or also it can be utilized in the context of discipleship. 

David Capes 

You could use it as a platform for discipleship. I grew up in a tradition and people listening to this podcast may have and they say things like that, “no creed, but the Bible”. That statement assumes that you have a Bible. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, exactly. Or you have one translated into a language you can read, 

David Capes 

And that assumes you can read. Throughout much of the history of the church, people couldn’t read and there weren’t Bibles in every home. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, exactly. Before Bible apps, before the printing press, the main way people encountered scripture was through what they heard in church. They learned things they were taught early in their faith. Maybe they memorized Psalms and prayed elements like that. That’s why I get a little bit confused when people say the Bible is the center of our faith. Now, I’m a biblical scholar. I really do love me some Bible. I know you do too, David. But what was the center of people’s faith before the printing press? 

One of the main ways people learned Christian doctrine was, from their priest or pastor in their church, teaching them. Simple things by the prayers they prayed, being able to recite the Lord’s prayer or the Apostles Creed was the main foundational tools that people had when they wanted to understand who God was towards them. The Creed is like a portable theological syllabus you can take with you wherever you go. Wherever you can recite the Lord’s Prayer, you can begin thinking, praying, teaching and speaking about God, just by using the Apostles Creed as the template. 

David Capes Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 3 – 

Now you’re an Anglican by confession, and you confess weekly, like other Anglicans, the Nicene Creed, which is longer. And you could write the same thing with the Nicene Creed, as you do with this, but it would be a longer book! 

Michael Bird 

Well, Anglicans are technically meant to say the Apostles Creed every day. We’re meant to say the Nicene Creed on Sunday, and I think we’re meant to say the Athanasian Creed on Trinity Sunday. But that one’s very long. We don’t normally do that. But you’re right, the Nicene Creed does sound very similar to the Apostles Creed, but it’s longer. That was a creed that was based in a more polemical context, where the church was trying to figure out, who is Jesus in relation to God the Father. Is Jesus semi divine, miniature divine, or is he divine in the same way as God the Father? And it kicks off with the Creed of Nicaea in 325 AD and then climaxed when the Creed of Nicaea augmented or polished up a bit in 381 AD, in the first council of Constantinople. So, yes, that is very similar to the Apostles Creed, but it’s got a little bit more of a focus on the person of Jesus, God the Son, and a little bit more of a polemical rationale behind it as well. It’s saying, these are where the limits of the Christian faith are. 

David Capes 

I’ve always thought it’s kind of interesting because the Creed begins with something like pisteuo or credo. “I believe.” I believe. But it’s almost always “we”. We do that together. There are times that I would want to say, this is what we believe. We believe in God the Father. We believe in the Holy Spirit. We believe in the Holy, apostolic, catholic Church. I have a little bit of a push back there. I wish we would say this together, as with what we believe. Because we have come to this faith together. We’ve not come to it in isolation. I didn’t arrive here on my own. I arrived here as a result of the ministry and the witness of thousands of people before I was ever born. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, and that’s the amazing thing. When you recite the Apostles Creed, you are joining a chorus, a communion of people around the world, right now. Think about it horizontally, but also then vertically. There are men and women well over a thousand years who have been reciting this creed as a statement of their unity in the one God. So it’s about, one LORD, one faith, one baptism, that we all share. And the symbol of that sharedness of our unity with each other is the way we recite the Apostles Creed. 

Another interesting fact is in a lot of churches, it’s customary to recite the Apostles Creed after the sermon. The logic there is, after you’ve heard the sermon from a teacher, it’s like now evaluate that against what it says in the creed. So, you go from the sermon to the Creed to remind you of what we’ve just heard but now think of it over and against the Apostles Creed. Hopefully the two are unified together. That provides, if you like, the immediate report card or the lens, the context in which you should remember and evaluate the sermon you’ve just heard. To ensure that you’re not just getting the ravings and strange, peculiar thoughts of some rando preacher! We now confess the Apostles Creed, because that is the context which we understand and evaluate the Word of God when it’s preached and presented to us. So that’s another interesting tradition. 

David Capes Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 4 – 

We should give everybody cards, and they can hold up a card from 1-10. 

Michael Bird 

A scoring card, a scoring system. 

David Capes 

Yes, exactly but the Russian judge would always lower it several levels. You know how that goes with the Russian judge! 

Michael Bird 

Yeah, I know. I know 

David Capes 

One of the things you talk about here, is the idea of faith is fact. I think that’s the way you put it. And people today say you have facts or you’ve got faith and they’re not the same. And I love that little section where you talk about having faith based on fact. 

Michael Bird 

Faith is certainly far more than ascent to facts. There’s an element of trust. There’s an element of fidelity, even, dare I say, allegiance. But faith does include assenting to certain revealed truths about God. That God is Father, Jesus is Lord, the Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father. What faith does, and this is faith as articulating the content of what we believe, that’s an important element. In the ancient world, Christians were not unique by having important religious or theological beliefs. You can find that in Greco-Roman philosophy. You can find that in various cults, religions and popular practices in the ancient world. 

Where Christians were unique, is that they had an enthusiasm to police the boundaries of belief. That is where Christians were very, very unique.They don’t have theology. No, they did have a theology. They did have beliefs. You can read Cicero’s on the nature of the gods as a good example of debates about theology in the ancient world. But Christians really did want a certain degree of precision, particularly when it came to who God is and the relationship of God the Son to God the Father. And it was using belief as the boundary for what it means to behold, believe in God and follow the Lord Jesus Christ. So, faith as fact, was one of the more interesting and the more unique features of the first Christians. 

David Capes 

Yes, interesting. I really appreciated that section. One of the sections too, that I liked was the harrowing of Hades. That is a piece of the creed that some people would like to do without. You make a good argument that it’s important that we think about that, that we confess that, that we understand that as well. 

Michael Bird 

Yes, part of the problem is that our older English renderings of the Creed, now the Apostles Creed, is initially a Latin creed. A lot of early translation says that Jesus descended to hell, and people have found that problematic. Because hell is the place of eternal punishment for sinners who rebel against Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 5 – 

God. What would Jesus be doing there? You’ve also got the problem of whether hell actually exists yet. Because in the book of Revelation, it says, “Hades will be poured into the lake of fire”. You’ve got the idea that hell doesn’t exist [until in the future]. This is a future state for the wicked who remain resolute in their rebellion against God. So, people have always found that problematic. 

The problem goes back to the fact that there are different Latin words for a place in the afterlife. There is inferna and there is Infernum. If I can remember correctly, inferna refers to the waiting place of the dead like Hades, but Infernum refers to the place of everlasting judgment. We could say that there’s a distinction between Greek it would be Hades, the waiting place of the dead and Gehenna, which is hell, the place of everlasting judgment. That distinction got lost in the early Middle Ages, and some Latin manuscripts would interchange inferna and Infernum. So, there was a bit of a confusion that was introduced at at that point. 

People would say things like, Jesus descended to hell. What is far more likely and what is more in keeping with what we find in the New Testament and other creedal traditions about the church is to say that Jesus descended to Hades, or he descended to the place of the dead, and that also means we have to bring back Holy Saturday. Now we have good Friday, and the death of Jesus for our sins, and the atonement. We have the resurrection. But on Holy Saturday, Jesus participates in death. He goes down to Hades, experiences the full consequences of death in that way. And then leaves Hades, and comes back to life. 

And one area where the Christian tradition has really gone to town, in art, song, poetry, has been talking about what Jesus was doing in Hades and how he took everyone out of Hades, all the saints since Adam. He took them out of Hades and took them up to heaven with Him. So, it’s been a whole tradition discussing that. When Christ descends from Hades into the resurrection and then his ascension, he’s also taking with him all of the Old Testament. saints who are translated from Hades into this new heavenly abode. It’s a very interesting feature of what we would call individual personal eschatology, and something I think is notoriously misunderstood in creeds and confessions these days. 

David Capes 

I think you make a good point in the book. Here is the blurb on the back of the book by Amy Peeler. 

With his quintessential clear and playful prose, Mike Bird presents the glories of the faith received from the apostles. And in the second edition, he makes personal contemplation and communal conversation about Christian faith even more achievable. 

That’s great praise! What did you do in the second edition to enhance personal contemplation and communal conversation? What happens here? 

Michael Bird 

Well, generally, I added about 10% more content to the book. I added a few more paragraphs, clarifying a few things here and there, but at the end of each chapter, I would also add these brief reflections and some questions that people might want to consider and think about. That’s something I’ve tried to do. It’s more than, there’s the resurrection of Jesus, or there’s something on the Holy Spirit. I wanted to give Transcribed by https://otter.ai – 6 – 

people some material to think about and to consider after what they’ve read, what they’ve contemplated in this chapter. One of the other things that inspired me to update this book is I found out it’s being used as one of the textbooks for seminary courses in prisons in the United States. Generally, when I talk to my publisher about markets, it’s not one I’m really going in after. 

David Capes 

That’s not one that you think about. There are a lot of Baptists imprisoned in Texas. I don’t know why! It’s a fun book, and I see that you have readers work with one another too in it. There are also QR codes where they can get information. You’re actually teaching through the book. For people like me that can’t get enough of Mike Bird, where do we go to get more of you teaching and speaking? 

Michael Bird 

Oh, there’s a few different places. I’ve got my own podcast with the N.T. Wright, called the Ask N.T. Wright, Anything Podcast. I’ve got a sub stack called Word from the Bird, which I spend a lot of time playing around with. And also a YouTube channel called Early Christian History. So that’s kind of what I do in my copious amounts of spare time when I’m not teaching, academic “deaning,” and all those sorts of tasks. I try to put a few things out in the virtual world. 

David Capes 

For the cost of a premium coffee in the United States, you can have a Word from the Bird on sub stack. That’s the best $7 I spend every month. 

Michael Bird 

Bless you, and if anything, I hope I’m stopping you from drinking more coffee. 

David Capes 

Well, you can’t stop me from doing that. In fact, I drink coffee as I watch you, because I know you love coffee so much! 

Michael Bird 

Yeah, the inside joke here is I have a pathological hatred of coffee. I can’t stand the taste, the smell, or the fact that people spend so much time raving about coffee. 

David Capes 

Well, there we go. Mike Bird, thanks for being with us today and being a part of this. We’re talking about his book today, What Christians Ought to Believe: An Introduction to Christian Doctrine Through the Apostles Creed. It’s a great book and I would recommend it. I may be using this soon as a teaching tool in our church. Thanks, Mike. 

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Paul, the Stoic Rabbi

To hear the podcast click here.

Joey Dodson  

Hi. I’m Joey Dodson. I’m the Craig L. Blomberg Chair of New Testament at Denver Seminary in colorful Colorado.

 David Capes  

Dr Joseph Dodson, Joey, welcome back to our podcast.  

 Joey Dodson  

Thanks so much for having me. 

 David Capes  

It’s a delight to see you here. You’re here for a few days. You could be here for a few weeks, if you wanted to, or maybe a few months working, because we have places for scholars to do that kind of thing. But you’re here working on a project.

 Joey Dodson  

Yeah, this is my third time here finishing up a project, so it’s become part of my rhythm to finish a book here. And I’m very grateful to you and Mark and people at the Lanier Theological Library. It’s a great place to have quiet, to have a library, to have community.

 David Capes  

And to be asked to interrupt your work and come over and do a podcast!

 Joey Dodson  

It’s always great to talk to you. 

 David Capes  

Yes, I’m delighted. Last year you finished a book, and it’s the book that we’re going to be talking about. It’s entitled Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought. But we’re just so glad that you’re here. Thanks for being a part of this conversation today. All right, I always ask, what’s the big idea of the book.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, thanks for having me. Homer was the most important work in the first century. I begin by talking about how Homer’s favorite nickname for Odysseus is “polytropos”, a man of twists and turns. Because he can become all things to all people according to the matters at hand. And so it’s similar to how Paul can, in a sense, out Odysseus, Odysseus. He’s the one by his own profession, can become all things to all people in order to reach them. To the Jew, he becomes one like a Jew. To those that are not a Jew, he becomes like them as well. And this is an example of how Paul is a man of twists and turns. How when he’s standing toe to toe with a Jewish contemporary, he can carry on a great conversation, and then also with the philosophers of his time. Paul is that man of twists and turns, and how that fleshes out in his letters.

 David Capes  

One of the things that people don’t realize is that Paul himself actually quotes from literature from his time, and authors from his time. Do you find that people are upset that Paul is drawing from something other than the Jewish tradition? 

 Joey Dodson  

I don’t think they should be, if they are. Paul is a man of many worlds. He was born in Tarsus, and Tarsus was like an Ivy League town of the day, full of scholars.

 David Capes 

 Like a Princeton.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, or like a Lanier! So he’s surrounded by those and Paul as one who has a heart to reach all people, is willing to use whatever he can in order to proclaim the truth of the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 David Capes  

Your book is really divided into two parts. The first part is the more Jewish part. You say, Paul the rabbi, the philosopher. Do you mean that in a technical sense, Paul the rabbi?

 Joey Dodson  

I do not. Almost like what we see in the fourth gospel, when John and calls Jesus a rabbi. So this is not a professional rabbi post, 70 AD. But this is a rabbi to show that Paul is a Hebrew of Hebrews, that Paul is one who has that Jewish training. One of my children is neuro divergent, and once just blurted out, “Paul has Jewish underwear.”


I’m not sure what the child meant, but I do think that at Paul’s core, he is a Jewish teacher. The first half of that puts him in conversation as if he’s having a cup of coffee with a current author of his time, who we call the author of the Wisdom of Solomon. Which is actually in our very first New Testament, the Muratorian Canon. But that’s a different discussion for a different podcast. I put Paul in dialog with the author of the Wisdom of Solomon. They’re writing about some of the exact same issues. They’re dealing with it. 

And most scholars believe that when Paul writes Romans, the Wisdom of Solomon is on the desk. Where it is on the desk, whether it’s in the center or on the side, is debated. But the vast majority of Romans scholars think that we probably shouldn’t read Romans unless we have the Wisdom of Solomon. And some even say that the interlocutor, the imaginary friend that Paul conjures up in Romans 2:1, “but what about you, Oh, man.” Paul is gesturing to the author of the Wisdom of Solomon, or someone like him.

 David Capes  

For those who don’t know the Wisdom of Solomon, where would they find it?

 Joey Dodson  

In the Deuterocanonical text, the Apocrypha. And it was written somewhere between Malachi and Matthew, probably at the turn of the first century.

 David Capes  

So it’s really contemporaneous with Paul and Jesus.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes correct. And again, it deals with some of the exact same issues that Paul’s going to deal with, particularly in Romans. This is someone who doesn’t know Jesus Christ and probably had written this before the beginning of Jesus’s ministry, but a faithful Jew trying to live out faithfulness to Torah, faithfulness to the Lord in exile. 

 David Capes  

Yes, as I recall, it’s mostly written in terms of a poetic form, isn’t it?

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, it’s Alexandrian Greek. And so as similar to what we might see with Philo Apollos, who hung out with Priscilla and Aquila. This is the type of language that he would have, and it’s very beautifully written. And he’s going to not only deal with some of the same topics and the same context as Paul, but drawing from the same holy text, the same Hebrew, the same Jewish Scriptures that Paul is going to be drawing on.

 David Capes  

Are there quotations in the Wisdom of Solomon, like Paul says when he uses an introductory formula, let’s say, or other times like that?

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, there are, exactly. Even sometimes, when Paul writes in Romans, it sounds like he may be quoting. In Romans 5:12 where it says “sin and death enter into the world”, the Wisdom of Solomon says almost the exact same Greek, except he leaves off sin. It’s just “death enters into the world”. Some believe that even Romans, chapter 1:18-32 is a paraphrase, a summary of the Wisdom of Solomon chapter 13, even to the point of “you were without excuse”, like what we see in Romans 1.

 David Capes  

How would you define wisdom, not necessarily the book Wisdom of Solomon.  What is wisdom?

 Joey Dodson  

I think Paul, and we don’t see it as much in Romans as we might see it in 1 Corinthians and Colossians, but there’s this wisdom theology, or wisdom Christology, that’s there. We see it in John, in the Wisdom of Solomon, he’s going to have a Holy Trinity. His Holy Trinity is going to be masculine, feminine and neuter. The masculine is going to be logos. And so the Logos is going to be a figure that’s very similar to what we see in John 1. And then the neuter is going to be the spirit, the spirit of holiness, the Holy Spirit. And then the feminine is going to be Sophia. She’s the main character in this. Sophia means wisdom, probably going back to Proverbs, where you have lady wisdom that was with God at creation. Through her, all things are created, and so she is the hero. But again, he’s going to use spirit, logos, and wisdom interchangeably throughout the work.

 David Capes  

It’s a fascinating book. It really is, and I would encourage people to go and read it if they have the opportunity. And to read your book, because what you do is you bring elements from the wisdom into contact with things that Paul has said, and to see the similarities and differences.

 Joey Dodson  

I suspect that Paul read the Wisdom of Solomon, like we might read C.S. Lewis today, or Tim Keller or David Capes if you were going to an ancient bookstore. If there were those in Barnabas and Nobles.

 David Capes  

 Barnabas and Nobles, I love it!

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, it would be really popular. And I’m guessing whether it was Paul was under Gamaliel, or just as his own reading, because there wasn’t as many books during this time that Paul was familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon. 

 David Capes  

These are Jewish books that are written at roughly at the time of Jesus and Paul and they give us a great deal of insight into the Jewish people. So it’s a great thing. Now, the second part of the book is about Paul the philosopher. Is that a technical term that you use that he is a philosopher? 

 Joey Dodson  

I think most people would consider Paul a philosopher. He even teaches in a lecture hall. Philosopher more than a rabbi. Rabbi spoke predominantly to Jewish people. Here Paul is speaking to Gentiles. The philosophers taught both men and women like what we see Paul do, and they’re dealing with some of the same issues. Now, often we think the word philosopher. We think of our philosophy class that we had in the university. Philosophers during this time, predominantly were about moral formation. How do we get rid of those sinful desires and live a life that imitates God and so much of what Paul presents? And this is how the philosophers, when they see Paul, they think he’s an amateur philosopher. He’s very good he’s a sperma-logos. You know, an armchair philosopher, or theologian. But then he begins to speak, and they realize, wow, he’s actually out Socrates’s, Socrates there in Acts, chapter 17

I think for many people. Because Paul is not connected to a cult, because he’s not always even quoting the Hebrew Bible, like what we see in 1 Thessalonians, even though I think that’s under the surface. Paul even quotes some of their poets. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul, in the same breath, it’s just seamless, goes from Isaiah to Meander, this ancient poet. And so “eat, drink and be merry” and “bad company corrupts good morals”. And so you have Paul drawing upon both of those. And for many people, they would see Paul as a philosopher.

 David Capes  

How would you understand inspiration? At that point, people say it’s inspired by God, but he’s quoting this pagan philosopher. How does inspiration work for you?

 Joey Dodson  

Theopneustos. This word inspiration, we often use it in conversations for inerrancy of Scripture, but theopneustos means “that which is coming from the Lord”. One thing that philosophers would say is that all truth is God’s truth. And if Plato stumbles upon a truth, it’s not his truth. This is God’s truth that’s inside of them. When Paul is speaking to the Gentiles, at one point, he says, “you know, God did not leave you without a witness”. Later on, he’ll say, “even as your own poet said”. I believe that just as God uses Moses and the Torah and the prophets, and the Hebrew Scriptures. So also to reach the Gentiles, he’s going to draw on these great quotes that give us a picture of even the Gentiles being in the image of God. God is so providential that just as he’s going to use Moses, he’s also going to use the likes of Seneca to draw people in and it’s effective in Athens. Some there are philosophers that become Christ followers.

 David Capes  

Right, exactly. And he certainly planted some great seeds there. There are people that look at the world as if God was only at work in the Jews and Jewish people, at that time. Like he had never really worked among Gentiles. Mark Lanier makes a great case, I think, for the idea that God is and has been at work in these places as well. Not to the same degree, or to the full flourish that we see in Christianity. But still, God is working. When Paul quotes the philosopher or poet, it could well be that what he has quoted really does, represents the truth, and it represents that which God has breathed into these other folks as well.

 Joey Dodson  

And I think it shows Paul’s evangelistic heart. Even today. I could say God placed eternity in our heart and be more hyper spiritual, quoting Augustine. Or I could say, “I can’t get no satisfaction, but I tried, but I tried, but I tried.” I could go with Rolling Stones, or I could go with Augustine. With both of those the heart is to say that we can only find full joy and eudaimonia, flourishing in Jesus Christ.

 David Capes  

Seneca is your conversation partner here. Why Seneca among others?

 Joey Dodson  

I love me some Seneca! Seneca was the most prolific Roman stoic, philosopher. He was one of the most popular among the elite during the first century, during Paul’s time. So often when people think of Stoics, they may think of Marcus Aurelius, the great stoic emperor, but he would be like the Taylor Swift of stoicism, like pop stoicism. He’s a great entryway. And I love his meditations. They might think of Epictetus, who is a little bit later, and who actually writes in Greek. And so it’s great to put Epictetus as Greek up against other and he writes in Koine Greek at that. But as far as the one who had the most influence, Seneca, would be that one, and he, again, was contemporaneous with Paul. He was born about the same time Jesus was born. He lived in Egypt, probably about the same time Jesus was in Egypt. 

He was born in Spain and comes to Rome. He wants to be a professional philosopher, but his dad encourages him to take a place in the Senate. He went into exile, similar to what we see with John in Revelation, under Claudius. When Claudius dies, the Jewish people are allowed to come back into Rome, if you remember this. And Seneca is able to come back as well. 

He begins to tutor the next emperor, Nero, and ends up dying under Nero. So Nero executes Seneca also. And early church fathers even claim Seneca as their own. Our Father Seneca because he seemed to be at the threshold of Christianity without even realizing that he was. Hopefully the second part of the book will show that, to go back to that theopneustos word, that inspiration. I think the theopneustos should be translated as inspiration when we’re talking about our scripture, but maybe inspiring would be another way. And so Seneca is not inspired the same way that Romans is inspired. That Isaiah is inspired, but it is inspiring. And I’d say he’s saying the same thing as with [Wisdom of] Solomon. It may not be inspired in the same way as Genesis or Deuteronomy, but it is inspiring to read. 

 David Capes  

We would say the same thing about C.S. Lewis. Inspiring to read. And we could bring it into our sermons to help illustrate things. Obviously, they need to get your book, and they need to see how you have pulled together Seneca and Paul into this conversation. But if they just wanted to read something about Seneca, where would they get started? Where’s the best place to read in English? 

 Joey Dodson  

They can probably Google it and get it for free. It’s public access. The translations are going to be different. If you get a public access, it’s probably going to be more like the King James Version. I’m guessing most of the people that listen to this podcast are more erudite, and so if they like languages, you can get the Loeb Classical Series, The LCL that’s going to have the English translation on the one side and the Latin on the other. And I think it’s probably one of the best translations. 

Seneca wrote the letters very similar to Paul, and about the same length as Paul as well. And so when you think of those who wrote really, really, really long letters in the first century, Seneca and Paul wrote these moral essays, like on the providence of God and on mercy. John Barkley, for those of your audience who’ve mirror with him, thinks that Paul’s understanding of grace and gift aligns and accords and harmonizes more with Seneca than anyone else. Paul might say things like in Ephesians 5, “don’t let the sun go down on your anger”. But Seneca is going to have three books dedicated to how to overcome anger and what anger is. And so the moral essays would be that. 

And then he also wrote dramas he had two blockbuster hits, if you will, on Hercules. One in which Nero actually played the part of Hercules during that time. And I’m not a literature person, but literature people say that Seneca’s plays actually influenced Shakespeare, and so it was almost proto- Shakespearean.

 David Capes  

Interesting. Well, it’s a great book. It’s a great idea for a book, and you’ve done well. I’ve got a digital copy here, but I always like to hold the copy. I love the cover. Hendrickson is publishing it. 

 Joey Dodson  

Thank you! One of my former students is an acquisition editor, and like you, I have a hard time saying no to my former students. I prize them so much. This is somewhat of a summative work of my last 30 years studying Paul. And the first half is with Wisdom of Solomon, the second half is with Greco Roman philosophy.

 David Capes  

The book is entitled Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought. The author is Dr Joseph R. Dodson. and Joey, thanks for being with us today on the podcast.

Joey Dodson  

Thanks, All the best.

 Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought.

 

 

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Posted on

The Intersection of Christianity and Ancient Cultures

To hear the podcast click here.

George Kalantzis  

Hi. I am George Kalantzis, and I teach theology at Wheaton College, where I also direct the Wheaton Center for Early Christian Studies.

David Capes  

Dr George Kalantizis, welcome to The Stone Chapel Podcast. It’s a great pleasure to be with you. We are here at the Lanier Theological Library. You’re going to be teaching a class on early church history beginning tonight for our certificate program. I have to tell you, there’s been a lot of excitement around this class.

George Kalantzis  

Thank you. It’s a great opportunity to try to do 500 years in five hours!

David Capes  

That’s all we’ve given you for 500 years? I don’t know what that boils down to per decade or per century, but maybe just one hour per century. It’s going to be coming pretty fast. You’re working on some other projects as well. What are you working on now? 

George Kalantzis  

I’m finishing a book right now on seven questions that framed and shaped the Christological discussions in the first six centuries. Basically, how did the answer, any answer to Jesus’s question, “who do you say that I am”, frames and brings further questions that need further clarity. And in that process, how the church developed a grammar and a lexicon on how to understand and how to speak of the one we worship. 

The other project is on the theology of refugees. It’s not a theology for refugees, but it’s a theology of refugees. I’ve been working with the International Association for Refugees for almost a dozen years now. Refugee work in southeast and the eastern part of Africa, hearing the voices of our brothers and sisters who have been displaced. Who have been forcibly displaced, seeking refuge. How do they see God? How do they hear God? Who does God reveal himself to be to them? It’s the same God we worship. Based on our location where we are as we speak of God and expect to hear God in particular ways. They hear God differently. Their emphasis, for example, is a lot more on the Old Testament. The emphasis is on the prophets and the messages of the prophet, the emphasis on the liberation from oppression.

David Capes  

That’s what they know, that’s what they’re experiencing. 

George Kalantzis  

That’s their experience. God is a lot more, can I use the word tangible, to them than perhaps the God of the universe is to us.

David Capes  

A lot of times, people think of God in a far-off way. As in, I’m going to God one day when I die. But they have to begin to see God working in their lives, working in history.

George Kalantzis  

Yes, even in relationships.

David Capes  

Yes, which is very scary, because they have been, as you said, forcibly displaced. They’re not there in Khartoum or some other place because they want to be. They’ve been forced there by some power, some political power.

George Kalantzis  

Political, economic, health. They’re fleeing cholera. They’re fleeing famine. They’re fleeing civil war. They’re fleeing militias. Ten or twelve years ago I remember a question from Pastor Steven, a Presbyterian pastor of South Sudanese. When he spoke, he lifted his left arm, half of it was missing because he was cut off by a machete in an attack. And when we asked him, what do you expect from the next week that we’re going to be together. 

He raised his hand and said, by the end of the week, I want to be able to forget. Forget that I had to dig with my hands a shallow grave to bury my wife as we were fleeing the conflict. He never stopped being a pastor. He never stopped being a man of God, and now he’s one of the leaders of the Christian movement in refugee camps. But that relationship is a very different relationship with God and certainty of God than perhaps I have in the suburbs of Chicago.

David Capes  

Living in easy circumstances. I can’t wait to see that book. Eerdmans is publishing that. Today we’re going to turn our attention to the history of the Christian faith and discuss briefly, the first 500 year period of the early church. From the time roughly toward the end of the first century, into the fourth, and fifth centuries. What are you going to be talking about in that class?

George Kalantzis  

All stories begin with Alexander the Great.

David Capes  

You say that because you were born in Athens!

George Kalantzis  

You don’t have a middle name of “the” for nothing! We’re going to work through five movements, some of the five key developments in the story of Christianity. And it’s not just simply church history; it’s history of Christianity. In other words, more broadly as a movement than just simply ecclesial. The first one is the break with Judaism. How do the two faith traditions, by the end of the first century, beginning into the middle of the second century, start moving away from one another?

David Capes  

Yes, because they’ve been mostly one [people].

George Kalantzis  

They have been. It sometimes surprises people when I remind them, Jesus was a Jew. So, we’re all the apostles.

David Capes  

Yes, everybody that wrote the New Testament.

George Kalantzis  

That’s right. But then we have varying discussions, especially in the second century, as Christianity moves beyond the Judea centered experience into the diaspora experience. That’s where we have interactions with Hellenistic or diaspora Jews and Hellenistic Christians or pagans converted to Christianity. To whom do the scriptures belong? And by that, they mean the Hebrew Bible. What happens with the law? Do we keep the law? Who are the true people of God? That has can be seen perhaps as a bit theoretical. But the lived experience of these people is not just simply theoretical. Because being a Jew, or of the genus of the Jew, as the Romans would recognize them, the religion of the Jews carried with it legal standing. Being a Christian did not carry that.

David Capes  

It was a new thing, a new religion [as far as the Romans are concerned].

George Kalantzis  

It was a superstition. We had no legal standing. So, do Christians claim the status of the Jew? Do the Jews claim the Christians as their team? How does that work? Fundamental break with Judaism that happens both in theology, but also in legal standing and in outlook. 

The second is the movement of interacting with the world around them, because now we’re moving from a Jewish environment such as Palestinian, Judea, Samaria, Benjamine to a much broader environment that is Hellenistic, with its culture, with its philosophy. And we have a variety of Hellenistic Judaism, but also Philo in Alexandria, in Ephesus. But also we have middle Platonism. We have middle philosophical systems that are operative, about God, about ontology, about metaphysics, about morality. So how do Christians adopt, adapt, and interact with those philosophical systems? In the beginning was the logos.

David Capes  

You’ve got a pretty important Greek term there.

George Kalantzis  

That’s right. What do you want to do with that? We’re going to bring that all the way up to the second, end of the second century, beginning of the third with Tertullian of Carthage, the first great Latin theologian who gave us words and concepts like trinitas, trinity to describe what is “three in one” God. Sacraments, etc. 

So how does Christian movement interact with, adopt and adapt aspects of Greco-Roman culture and philosophy. Because not only did they take them in, but they changed them again. In the beginning was the word. That’s not a Jewish concept; that’s a Greek concept.  John continues in 1:14 and the Word became flesh. Well, his name was Jesus, right? We adopt and we adapt. 

The third would be what is this thing? We call it the church, the ecclesia. Great. How do we organize ourselves? When do we worship? To whom do we pray? How do we pray? Do we baptize? How do we baptize? What is this like? How does it function? So, church organization within that context. And what we’re going to see is that sometimes we think that the earliest church starts with a set organizational system, including worship.

David Capes  

Just like what I do every week. People think the same way as I do. They do exactly what we do every week.

George Kalantzis  

And from there, it diversifies. In actuality, it’s exactly the opposite. There is so much diversity in the earliest generations, and slowly, slowly, it takes us a few 100 years to standardize, sometimes per region, other times per language, etc, our worship and structure. The Eastern Church and the Western Church don’t have the same structure and organization. The fourth one is going to be what do we actually believe? Who is this Jesus? And if we confess with our mother church and tribe that “Hear O Israel, the Lord, your God, the Lord is one”, but now you have two or three. How do you do that? 

David Capes  

Really looking at the idea of the Trinity that has developed, that it’s already around. It’s not that it just is birthed in that century. But there’s not really been a system that puts it all together.

George Kalantzis  

We don’t have the grammar yet. Pliny, the younger, the famous governor of Bithynia in the second century, in 111 AD said “they pray to Christ as if to a God”. Already from the third generation [of Christians] in Bithynia, up in Pontus and Bithynia, Christians pray to Jesus as if to a God. In other words, praying to Jesus as God is the earliest that Christians do, from very early on. Okay, that’s great, but how do you not have two gods? So, you need to develop language to talk about it.

David Capes  

To talk about it, about the oneness of God. At the same time, have a trinity.

George Kalantzis  

So what is one? What is three? How do they relate? Does God the Father have a son, produce a son? That’s not a novel idea for the Greeks and the Romans. All their gods are born. They have mothers and fathers. So is that who he is? And if the father birthed the son, who’s the mother? Of course, here we have to talk about Mary. So that basic doctrinal definition, when we come and say, I want to be part of the community, and we say, great, this is what we believe. This is what we believe, and this is what you’re going to be baptized into. “I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible”. What does that mean? And if all things have been created by him, by the father, then what about Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. So basic definitions, that’s going to preoccupy the bulk of our time on the second day.

The same person who came over and said, I want to be part of this community, we say this is what we believe? But we don’t stop there. We also say, and this is how we live our life, which is the fifth part. Which is what are the patterns of spiritual and moral life that Christians had in the same letter, letter 96, Pliny to the Emperor Trajan. 

Pliny says this is the total sum of their worship. Remember, this is a pagan speaking right, trying to get it right. But he’s a pagan. He has no idea who the Christians are. It’s the first time he meets Christians. He says they gather on a specific day, early in the morning, they pray antiphonally with one another, in other words, back and forth, back and forth from the Psalms, basically. Then they take an oath with one another, to not commit adultery, to not commit murder, do not commit theft, to return a deposit. Then they go away, and at the end of the day, they gather together again for a common, ordinary meal. Can you imagine if our Sunday services ended with an oath? You turn to your neighbor and you take an oath. Like, this week, this is how I’m going to live my life.

David Capes  

I’m not going to murder.

George Kalantzis  

I’m not going to commit adultery. We will be having a different kind of discussion. 

David Capes

It’d be a different kind of service.

George Kalantzis  

So how do these patterns develop? How many times a day do you pray as Christians? What days do you fast? Why do Christians fast on Wednesday and Friday? Good question. Because we’re not Jews who fast on Monday and Thursday. It’s community formative. Rituals are community formative.

David Capes  

These are the things that we do that set us apart from other people.

George Kalantzis  

A simple thing that Christians did from early on, was to cross themselves. You make the sign of the cross. We don’t do it, or at least Protestants don’t do it. But Christians did because they marked themselves in public. You cross yourself in view of others, right across yourself. Others see you.

David Capes  

It’s not something you do in private. 

George Kalantzis  

That’s right. You don’t do it in private only. You do it in public and people see you. And that has consequence in the late third century. 

So we’ll come all the way up to there and see the transformation. We’ll close with the transformation of the Roman world from a pagan world to a Christian world.

David Capes  

Where Christianity does become legal at that point.

George Kalantzis  

That’s right. It becomes tolerated. It becomes legal, and it becomes the only within the span of 120 years.

David Capes  

Which, in historical terms, is very fast. Now, persecution seems to have been an important part of the history. You’re going to be addressing throughout.

George Kalantzis  

That’s in the break with Judaism, the response to the Roman world. There are reasons for the persecution. Persecution is not “because I don’t like you”. They are accusations. Christians are accused of being seditious traitors because they don’t take an oath. They don’t pledge allegiance to the Roman state and to the Roman emperor, pure military state, like the Romans are. How do you respond to people who do not pledge allegiance to the Caesar.

David Capes  

Or do they want to serve in a military? That became a problem as well. 

George Kalantzis  

That became a problem, especially when Christians are recognized or claimed to not be Jews. Because Jews were exempted from military service for religious reasons. But that was almost 200 years before. It has a long tradition in the Roman world. But you, your group, your people, say you’re not Jews, so you’re not covered by the exemptions of the Jews.

David Capes  

History is just messy, the birth of the Christian church in Palestine in the first century, and then its growth in the next 500 years. It’s just really phenomenal to see the expansion of it but also the things that have to take place in order for it to become a religion that is tolerated and then eventually favored, in the Roman world.

George Kalantzis  

Christianity, did not grow by leaps and bounds. For the first almost 250 years, Christianity was roughly around 2% [of the population of the Roman empire].

David Capes  

Of the Roman of the Roman population. 

George Kalantzis  

Yes. And then it starts reaching into the sociologically important 10% and then by the end of the third century, it reaches roughly in the mid 20%.

David Capes  

By then, they’re formidable.

George Kalantzis  

They’re a formidable group politically. Because if a group that is 2% or less of the population, you don’t know anyone in that group. 2% of 100 people that you meet on the street.

David Capes  

Maybe 2 in 100.

George Kalantzis  

Maybe two, yes. And how do you recognize them? But at10% you think wait a minute. I know some of these people.

David Capes  

Yes, I’ve met them. I think I work with one or two of them. 

George Kalantzis  

When they reach 25%, they live in your neighborhood. So now you pay attention. So how does that work? The other accusation was that they were atheists, and that is not just simply that Zeus in your heart. For the Romans, the relationship with the gods is sacred and pragmatic. It matters if the gods are turning against you as a person, as a city, as a province, as an empire. You’re done for.

David Capes  

Calamity is coming.

George Kalantzis  

Calamity is coming. Now flip the equation. When calamity comes. Why does it come? And everybody’s thoughts turn.

David Capes  

We have 10% of the people who are Christians, and they’re really messing all of us up. 

George Kalantzis  

That’s right. So, their atheism puts all of us in danger.

David Capes  

But the word atheos doesn’t mean what we mean by it.

George Kalantzis  

It means that they don’t worship our gods. They don’t give honor to our gods. Romans don’t care if Jesus is in your heart, or Zeus is in your heart, or nobody’s in your heart. They just don’t care. What they care is that each one of us acts in public according to the rituals of Roman religion.

David Capes  

And that ensures the safety of the city and all the people. I’m really fascinated by what we’re going to be doing tonight. I appreciate you coming all this way and sharing with us a little of what, what you know.

George Kalantzis  

We’re basically doing 16 weeks in five hours.

David Capes  

Okay, let’s see how quickly you can talk and we can listen to George Kalantzis, thanks for being with us today on The Stone Chapel Podcast.

George Kalantzis  

My pleasure. Thank you.

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The Impact of Joanna on Jesus’ Ministry

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David Capes  

Hi everybody, and welcome to The Stone Chapel Podcast. My name is David Capes. Joining me today is Dr Nancy Dawson, who has been with us before, several times to talk about remarkable women in the Bible, and she’s working on this amazing book called All the Women of the Bible. We’re going to be talking today about one of those women, and her name is Joanna. Dr Nancy Dawson, welcome back to The Stone Chapel Podcast.

Nancy Dawson

Thank you, Dr. Capes!

David Capes  

You’ve been here before to talk about the women who are mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew. And you’ve also been here before to talk about your book, All the Genealogies of the Bible. You’re working on another one called All the Women of the Bible. Tell us about that project.

Nancy Dawson  

There was a theme there. It’s a very exciting project. Broadman and Holman have asked me to write that book. Of course, it covers Old Testament and New Testament women. There’s around 350 women. So it’s a comprehensive, and a little bit daunting task, But very exciting and insightful to see the roles that women have. And why are they there? Why are they mentioned? How do their stories dovetail with what else is going on in the narratives and their overall importance. When you look at a fleshed out view of the women, you see how important they are. They do counter cultural things. I see that they foreshadow many of the characteristics of Christ and also divine characteristics. Through their actions, sometimes words, but definitely through their actions, they do these remarkable things. They are noteworthy.

David Capes  

All right, so when should we be able to go to Amazon or go to our local bookstore and pick that up?

Nancy Dawson  

It’ll probably be a couple of years. I’m in the middle of the research right now, which I enjoy so much, but getting that down into words and edited takes time.

David Capes  

You like the research better or the writing better?

Nancy Dawson  

I definitely like the research better. That’s my background but I’ve always been interested in teaching the Bible and writing about men and women.

David Capes  

Well, you’re a great teacher. I’ve seen you teach here. I’ve had you come to the course I teach for Truett seminary on the gospels and the book of Acts. You’ve done a great job in those classes. You’re a good teacher as well as a good researcher, and a great writer. 

All right, Joanna, let’s talk about Joanna.  Joanna is a person that a lot of people may not know very much about. She’s mentioned in passing in some ways, but she’s mentioned in some very important times and places. Let me read one of these texts from the Gospel of Luke. And it’s Luke, chapter eight, verse one. 

Soon afterward, he (Jesus) went on through the cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the Good News of the Kingdom of God. And the 12 were with him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities. Mary called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s household manager. And Susanna and many others who provided for them out of their means.

Nancy Dawson  

Remarkable. Number one, you probably haven’t ever heard a sermon about her, but she’s this Galilean aristocratic woman who is healed by Jesus of evil spirits, along with Mary Magdalene and Susanna. And remarkably, she becomes a disciple or follower of Jesus. The text says that she’s the wife of a Herodian official. And of course, they’re talking about Herod Antipas, who was the successor of Herod, the Great, his father. And this is a real poignant place in the text that tells you about her background and what information she might have about that royal court. And then, she becomes this faithful follower throughout Jesus’s ministry, and she’s going to be a witness, along with other women, to the crucifixion and the empty tomb.

David Capes  

She’s gone from Galilee at that point, the Galilean ministry, down to Judea, so she’s traveled with them. Is that correct?

Nancy Dawson  

Yes. Her name means “God has given graciously”. She’s named after her father, which might be common these days. Her father’s name was John or Yohanan, and this was a common practice in the Second Temple period. There was research done by a wonderful scholar named Tal IIan, who worked on Jewish women in the Greco Roman world and about 3- 4% of the women are called Joanna. It’s a very common name. Around 46% of the women are called Mary. So, this is why you always see terms of disambiguation for the Mary figures, like Mary of Magdala or Mary mother of Jesus. 

And some scholars have speculated that she should be equated with the Junia figure of Romans 16. I don’t adhere to that, but some scholars have said this is a possibility, but they’re usually very tentative, in making that association. She’s married to Herod Antipas’ steward named Chuza. He was an appointee of Herod and had a lot of court responsibilities, overseeing his estates, possibly acting like a steward or a guardian over the ones that would be up and coming for inheritance under Herod Antipas.

David Capes  

And they lived in Tiberias you said.

Nancy Dawson  

They lived in Tiberias, which was on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee. That town was basically built by Herod Antipas around AD 18-20 but noteworthy is it was built over a cemetery, and so this is not something that goes down well.

David Capes  

That’s not really kosher! Tiberias is a thriving city today. If you go to Israel, you’ll see it on that western shore.

Nancy Dawson  

It’s part of Galilee. It’s one of the major cities. Jesus grew up in this small Nazareth hometown in the Sepphoris area and so that’s the general area. But what we see with Joanna is that she’s definitely from this elite, aristocratic background. She’s Jewish, and whether her husband was a believer or not, is not clear. 

David Capes  

You mean a believer in Jesus?

Nancy Dawson  

In Jesus. She seems to be a type of informant, both to the Herodian court and also to Jesus and his followers of what’s going on. More than once she said Herod Antipas has heard about Jesus, and he’s curious, and he wants to see him. But he wants to see him so that he’ll perform a miracle for them.

David Capes  

He wants to see a show, doesn’t he?

Nancy Dawson  

Yes, that’s exactly right. But you can see that there’s this definitely negative overlay. She’s from a wealthy background, so has the luxury of the socially elite. Also, this is a highly Romanized place. The Jews do not like the taxation. They do not appreciate any of the political domination, the economic exploitation. Heron Antipas actually had to pay people to come and live in Tiberias.

David Capes  

Like Alaska today, you have to pay people to go live up there. There’s a couple of things I found fascinating from this. She’s mentioned specifically, as well as Susanna, as providing for Jesus and his ministry out of their own means. Let’s discuss that part of it.

Nancy Dawson  

These women are following Jesus and that’s strange and counter-cultural for the day. You don’t hear about women being in the entourage of John the Baptist. This is something you hear about only with Jesus. So, this is very striking for that time. Jesus invites women and approves of them being a part of a mixed entourage. So that’s very noteworthy. 

What you see is that she is supporting Jesus out of her own personal finances. There was a great book written in 2002 by Richard Bauckham called Gospel Women, and he researched where women would have the ability to have discretionary funds that they could use, possibly separate from their husband. Because Chuza may not have been supportive of this. She has at least some disposable funds at her discretion. 

And there’s seven sources. One is that you could have inheritance from your father. Usually, this is like the prodigal son. The father is dead, and then you receive it. But there’s also property that can be acquired by a deed of a gift from your father or mother or your husband. That she could use also. There was at the time of marriage, ketubah money, the marriage contract money. That was what her husband would pay to her in case they were ever divorced or something would happen to him. 

David Capes

A prenuptial agreement in a way,

Nancy Dawson

Exactly, yes. She could have tapped into that. The dowry that was paid by her husband to her father, sometimes that is given to the daughter. 

David Capes  

This could be considerable money that you’re talking about.

Nancy Dawson  

Yes, or possibly property. Something like Barnabas, who sold his property to support the ministry. And it could be something like this that she availed, this source of funds and monies to give. And this is so consistent with her name which means “God has given graciously”. Then you see that she, in turn, gives graciously. This is a striking aspect of ministry.

David Capes  

There’s a lot of talk these days among scholars about benefactors and patrons and those kinds of things. Benefaction is a particular kind of giving, but what I hear you saying is this is not really “benefaction.”

Nancy Dawson  

Not according to that traditional female patron benefactor role where a wealthy person is giving money or provisions for a community in return for status or honor. Instead, she actually joins this itinerant band of followers of Jesus. She is not regarded in any special way. We know from the story of the widow with two mites, she gave everything that she had, and so that was what was praised. Not how much you give, but that you give willingly and graciously. And this is what she does. 

David Capes  

It’s striking to me that she leaves behind a rather a luxurious life for this itinerant life, sleeping in tents and walking lots of distance and probably doing lots of washing clothes at the river, those kinds of things.

Nancy Dawson  

Yes. We don’t really know. The text is silent on what these women actually do. But Luke is so poignant in mentioning this; that it’s women who support the ministry. It doesn’t mean that men did not support the ministry, but Luke is making a statement on what is generally true. And so, you see the mention of her in a Luke 8:3 and then we’re going to see that Luke mentions her again in Luke 24. There’s an inclusio, a literary inclusio about Joanna that I find is again, remarkable.

David Capes  

Let me read that text. We’re looking at Luke 24:9.

Now at daybreak on the first day of the week Jesus had been discovered as raised from the dead. Then they, (that is these women) who observed this returned from the tomb and announced all these things to the eleven and all the others. The women were Mary Magdalene, Joanna and Mary, the mother of James, and others who accompanied them, also told this to the apostles. But their story, (that is, the women’s story,) seemed like nonsense, so they did not believe them.

What do you learn from that?

Nancy Dawson  

The testimony of women was considered unreliable. I think it was J.D. Atkins on one of the Exegetically Speakingpodcasts that said the old lexicons say that sounded like hum-bug. It’s like just an old wives tale. We’re not going to believe that. It’s just a silly tale that women are saying. But what you see is in all the Gospel accounts, it is women who are present at the crucifixion, at his burial, at the empty tomb and at the resurrection. Now John 19:25 also mentions one of the disciples that was at the crucifixion, and that was John the Beloved Disciple, but you don’t hear any mention about men. And again, this is noteworthy. These women have a staying power, a presence, even in these difficult moments. They’re not running away. 

They’re not afraid. They’re there at the crucifixion and they’re at a distance, it says. But then at the burial, they’re taking spices to the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea; and they prepared the body, but because it was a Sabbath, it wasn’t completed. It was done in haste.

David Capes  

They had to, by the rules the Sabbath, stop what they were doing with the idea that the when the Sabbath is over, the first day of the week has arrived, which was a day of work, then they would go back finish the job.

Nancy Dawson  

And so, this is what the women do. They complete this proper burial ritual. They prepare spices and take them in. They complete that process. But when they arrive at the empty tomb, two angels are there, and they say to the women, 

“Why are you looking for the living among the dead? He is not here, but he has risen.”

And the next phrase that’s used is, 

“Remember how he spoke to you when he was still in Galilee, and He would be crucified and rise on the third day”.

And then they remembered his words.

David Capes  

In other words, the women were there when Jesus was saying all this.

Nancy Dawson  

Yes. You see that they don’t even have to touch Jesus or eat with Jesus, or remember the scriptures. They remember his words. And this is what we’re all called to do, is recall the scriptures, recall what Jesus has said. And so, they become these incredible eyewitnesses and servants. Joanna left a life of ease. She reminds me a little bit of Old Testament Abigail, who was married to Nabal, the fool. And she leaves that life of luxury and becomes a wife and follower of the Son of David, and so, there’s these interesting parallels.

David Capes  

Yes, there are interesting parallels. What’s one thing you take away from Joanna as you think about your own life here in the 21st Century?

Nancy Dawson  

What I see is that we always need to be flexible. We need to consider and be ready to leave that life, that maybe we have had, and be willing to follow a new path. And that Jesus can use you with whatever you bring. For Joanna it was possessions, but it was also a kind of fidelity, and this is what we’re called as Christians to do. And Luke probably uses Joanna as a source for information. The material that’s unique to Luke is called the L material in text criticism. She is giving these personal insights. This is what we all bring. It’s a personal insight. God can use you and remake you. And transform you.

David Capes  

I like the idea that Luke is naming his sources, throughout the gospel. He does it, I think, with Mary as well, and in an earlier passage. This is a great, great help, honestly. Maybe somebody will feel now they need to do a sermon on Joanna and encourage women and others who are there, who have the ability to give a gracious gift and be a gracious blessing. Dr Nancy Dawson, thanks for being with us today on this podcast.

Nancy Dawson  

Thank you so much. 

Description

Dr. Nancy Dawson is back on The Stone Chapel Podcast to talk with Dr. Capes about a woman in the New Testament who followed Jesus.  Few could name her or tell us anything about her. Her name is Joanna.  She came from elite circles to follow the Nazarene in a less than luxurious life. Luke tells us (Luke 8:1-3) that she supported Jesus’ work financially and was a close follower of him.