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Joey Dodson  

Hi. I’m Joey Dodson. I’m the Craig L. Blomberg Chair of New Testament at Denver Seminary in colorful Colorado.

 David Capes  

Dr Joseph Dodson, Joey, welcome back to our podcast.  

 Joey Dodson  

Thanks so much for having me. 

 David Capes  

It’s a delight to see you here. You’re here for a few days. You could be here for a few weeks, if you wanted to, or maybe a few months working, because we have places for scholars to do that kind of thing. But you’re here working on a project.

 Joey Dodson  

Yeah, this is my third time here finishing up a project, so it’s become part of my rhythm to finish a book here. And I’m very grateful to you and Mark and people at the Lanier Theological Library. It’s a great place to have quiet, to have a library, to have community.

 David Capes  

And to be asked to interrupt your work and come over and do a podcast!

 Joey Dodson  

It’s always great to talk to you. 

 David Capes  

Yes, I’m delighted. Last year you finished a book, and it’s the book that we’re going to be talking about. It’s entitled Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought. But we’re just so glad that you’re here. Thanks for being a part of this conversation today. All right, I always ask, what’s the big idea of the book.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, thanks for having me. Homer was the most important work in the first century. I begin by talking about how Homer’s favorite nickname for Odysseus is “polytropos”, a man of twists and turns. Because he can become all things to all people according to the matters at hand. And so it’s similar to how Paul can, in a sense, out Odysseus, Odysseus. He’s the one by his own profession, can become all things to all people in order to reach them. To the Jew, he becomes one like a Jew. To those that are not a Jew, he becomes like them as well. And this is an example of how Paul is a man of twists and turns. How when he’s standing toe to toe with a Jewish contemporary, he can carry on a great conversation, and then also with the philosophers of his time. Paul is that man of twists and turns, and how that fleshes out in his letters.

 David Capes  

One of the things that people don’t realize is that Paul himself actually quotes from literature from his time, and authors from his time. Do you find that people are upset that Paul is drawing from something other than the Jewish tradition? 

 Joey Dodson  

I don’t think they should be, if they are. Paul is a man of many worlds. He was born in Tarsus, and Tarsus was like an Ivy League town of the day, full of scholars.

 David Capes 

 Like a Princeton.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, or like a Lanier! So he’s surrounded by those and Paul as one who has a heart to reach all people, is willing to use whatever he can in order to proclaim the truth of the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 David Capes  

Your book is really divided into two parts. The first part is the more Jewish part. You say, Paul the rabbi, the philosopher. Do you mean that in a technical sense, Paul the rabbi?

 Joey Dodson  

I do not. Almost like what we see in the fourth gospel, when John and calls Jesus a rabbi. So this is not a professional rabbi post, 70 AD. But this is a rabbi to show that Paul is a Hebrew of Hebrews, that Paul is one who has that Jewish training. One of my children is neuro divergent, and once just blurted out, “Paul has Jewish underwear.”

I’m not sure what the child meant, but I do think that at Paul’s core, he is a Jewish teacher. The first half of that puts him in conversation as if he’s having a cup of coffee with a current author of his time, who we call the author of the Wisdom of Solomon. Which is actually in our very first New Testament, the Muratorian Canon. But that’s a different discussion for a different podcast. I put Paul in dialog with the author of the Wisdom of Solomon. They’re writing about some of the exact same issues. They’re dealing with it. 

And most scholars believe that when Paul writes Romans, the Wisdom of Solomon is on the desk. Where it is on the desk, whether it’s in the center or on the side, is debated. But the vast majority of Romans scholars think that we probably shouldn’t read Romans unless we have the Wisdom of Solomon. And some even say that the interlocutor, the imaginary friend that Paul conjures up in Romans 2:1, “but what about you, Oh, man.” Paul is gesturing to the author of the Wisdom of Solomon, or someone like him.

 David Capes  

For those who don’t know the Wisdom of Solomon, where would they find it?

 Joey Dodson  

In the Deuterocanonical text, the Apocrypha. And it was written somewhere between Malachi and Matthew, probably at the turn of the first century.

 David Capes  

So it’s really contemporaneous with Paul and Jesus.

 Joey Dodson  

Yes correct. And again, it deals with some of the exact same issues that Paul’s going to deal with, particularly in Romans. This is someone who doesn’t know Jesus Christ and probably had written this before the beginning of Jesus’s ministry, but a faithful Jew trying to live out faithfulness to Torah, faithfulness to the Lord in exile. 

 David Capes  

Yes, as I recall, it’s mostly written in terms of a poetic form, isn’t it?

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, it’s Alexandrian Greek. And so as similar to what we might see with Philo Apollos, who hung out with Priscilla and Aquila. This is the type of language that he would have, and it’s very beautifully written. And he’s going to not only deal with some of the same topics and the same context as Paul, but drawing from the same holy text, the same Hebrew, the same Jewish Scriptures that Paul is going to be drawing on.

 David Capes  

Are there quotations in the Wisdom of Solomon, like Paul says when he uses an introductory formula, let’s say, or other times like that?

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, there are, exactly. Even sometimes, when Paul writes in Romans, it sounds like he may be quoting. In Romans 5:12 where it says “sin and death enter into the world”, the Wisdom of Solomon says almost the exact same Greek, except he leaves off sin. It’s just “death enters into the world”. Some believe that even Romans, chapter 1:18-32 is a paraphrase, a summary of the Wisdom of Solomon chapter 13, even to the point of “you were without excuse”, like what we see in Romans 1.

 David Capes  

How would you define wisdom, not necessarily the book Wisdom of Solomon.  What is wisdom?

 Joey Dodson  

I think Paul, and we don’t see it as much in Romans as we might see it in 1 Corinthians and Colossians, but there’s this wisdom theology, or wisdom Christology, that’s there. We see it in John, in the Wisdom of Solomon, he’s going to have a Holy Trinity. His Holy Trinity is going to be masculine, feminine and neuter. The masculine is going to be logos. And so the Logos is going to be a figure that’s very similar to what we see in John 1. And then the neuter is going to be the spirit, the spirit of holiness, the Holy Spirit. And then the feminine is going to be Sophia. She’s the main character in this. Sophia means wisdom, probably going back to Proverbs, where you have lady wisdom that was with God at creation. Through her, all things are created, and so she is the hero. But again, he’s going to use spirit, logos, and wisdom interchangeably throughout the work.

 David Capes  

It’s a fascinating book. It really is, and I would encourage people to go and read it if they have the opportunity. And to read your book, because what you do is you bring elements from the wisdom into contact with things that Paul has said, and to see the similarities and differences.

 Joey Dodson  

I suspect that Paul read the Wisdom of Solomon, like we might read C.S. Lewis today, or Tim Keller or David Capes if you were going to an ancient bookstore. If there were those in Barnabas and Nobles.

 David Capes  

 Barnabas and Nobles, I love it!

 Joey Dodson  

Yes, it would be really popular. And I’m guessing whether it was Paul was under Gamaliel, or just as his own reading, because there wasn’t as many books during this time that Paul was familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon. 

 David Capes  

These are Jewish books that are written at roughly at the time of Jesus and Paul and they give us a great deal of insight into the Jewish people. So it’s a great thing. Now, the second part of the book is about Paul the philosopher. Is that a technical term that you use that he is a philosopher? 

 Joey Dodson  

I think most people would consider Paul a philosopher. He even teaches in a lecture hall. Philosopher more than a rabbi. Rabbi spoke predominantly to Jewish people. Here Paul is speaking to Gentiles. The philosophers taught both men and women like what we see Paul do, and they’re dealing with some of the same issues. Now, often we think the word philosopher. We think of our philosophy class that we had in the university. Philosophers during this time, predominantly were about moral formation. How do we get rid of those sinful desires and live a life that imitates God and so much of what Paul presents? And this is how the philosophers, when they see Paul, they think he’s an amateur philosopher. He’s very good he’s a sperma-logos. You know, an armchair philosopher, or theologian. But then he begins to speak, and they realize, wow, he’s actually out Socrates’s, Socrates there in Acts, chapter 17

I think for many people. Because Paul is not connected to a cult, because he’s not always even quoting the Hebrew Bible, like what we see in 1 Thessalonians, even though I think that’s under the surface. Paul even quotes some of their poets. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul, in the same breath, it’s just seamless, goes from Isaiah to Meander, this ancient poet. And so “eat, drink and be merry” and “bad company corrupts good morals”. And so you have Paul drawing upon both of those. And for many people, they would see Paul as a philosopher.

 David Capes  

How would you understand inspiration? At that point, people say it’s inspired by God, but he’s quoting this pagan philosopher. How does inspiration work for you?

 Joey Dodson  

Theopneustos. This word inspiration, we often use it in conversations for inerrancy of Scripture, but theopneustos means “that which is coming from the Lord”. One thing that philosophers would say is that all truth is God’s truth. And if Plato stumbles upon a truth, it’s not his truth. This is God’s truth that’s inside of them. When Paul is speaking to the Gentiles, at one point, he says, “you know, God did not leave you without a witness”. Later on, he’ll say, “even as your own poet said”. I believe that just as God uses Moses and the Torah and the prophets, and the Hebrew Scriptures. So also to reach the Gentiles, he’s going to draw on these great quotes that give us a picture of even the Gentiles being in the image of God. God is so providential that just as he’s going to use Moses, he’s also going to use the likes of Seneca to draw people in and it’s effective in Athens. Some there are philosophers that become Christ followers.

 David Capes  

Right, exactly. And he certainly planted some great seeds there. There are people that look at the world as if God was only at work in the Jews and Jewish people, at that time. Like he had never really worked among Gentiles. Mark Lanier makes a great case, I think, for the idea that God is and has been at work in these places as well. Not to the same degree, or to the full flourish that we see in Christianity. But still, God is working. When Paul quotes the philosopher or poet, it could well be that what he has quoted really does, represents the truth, and it represents that which God has breathed into these other folks as well.

 Joey Dodson  

And I think it shows Paul’s evangelistic heart. Even today. I could say God placed eternity in our heart and be more hyper spiritual, quoting Augustine. Or I could say, “I can’t get no satisfaction, but I tried, but I tried, but I tried.” I could go with Rolling Stones, or I could go with Augustine. With both of those the heart is to say that we can only find full joy and eudaimonia, flourishing in Jesus Christ.

 David Capes  

Seneca is your conversation partner here. Why Seneca among others?

 Joey Dodson  

I love me some Seneca! Seneca was the most prolific Roman stoic, philosopher. He was one of the most popular among the elite during the first century, during Paul’s time. So often when people think of Stoics, they may think of Marcus Aurelius, the great stoic emperor, but he would be like the Taylor Swift of stoicism, like pop stoicism. He’s a great entryway. And I love his meditations. They might think of Epictetus, who is a little bit later, and who actually writes in Greek. And so it’s great to put Epictetus as Greek up against other and he writes in Koine Greek at that. But as far as the one who had the most influence, Seneca, would be that one, and he, again, was contemporaneous with Paul. He was born about the same time Jesus was born. He lived in Egypt, probably about the same time Jesus was in Egypt. 

He was born in Spain and comes to Rome. He wants to be a professional philosopher, but his dad encourages him to take a place in the Senate. He went into exile, similar to what we see with John in Revelation, under Claudius. When Claudius dies, the Jewish people are allowed to come back into Rome, if you remember this. And Seneca is able to come back as well. 

He begins to tutor the next emperor, Nero, and ends up dying under Nero. So Nero executes Seneca also. And early church fathers even claim Seneca as their own. Our Father Seneca because he seemed to be at the threshold of Christianity without even realizing that he was. Hopefully the second part of the book will show that, to go back to that theopneustos word, that inspiration. I think the theopneustos should be translated as inspiration when we’re talking about our scripture, but maybe inspiring would be another way. And so Seneca is not inspired the same way that Romans is inspired. That Isaiah is inspired, but it is inspiring. And I’d say he’s saying the same thing as with [Wisdom of] Solomon. It may not be inspired in the same way as Genesis or Deuteronomy, but it is inspiring to read. 

 David Capes  

We would say the same thing about C.S. Lewis. Inspiring to read. And we could bring it into our sermons to help illustrate things. Obviously, they need to get your book, and they need to see how you have pulled together Seneca and Paul into this conversation. But if they just wanted to read something about Seneca, where would they get started? Where’s the best place to read in English? 

 Joey Dodson  

They can probably Google it and get it for free. It’s public access. The translations are going to be different. If you get a public access, it’s probably going to be more like the King James Version. I’m guessing most of the people that listen to this podcast are more erudite, and so if they like languages, you can get the Loeb Classical Series, The LCL that’s going to have the English translation on the one side and the Latin on the other. And I think it’s probably one of the best translations. 

Seneca wrote the letters very similar to Paul, and about the same length as Paul as well. And so when you think of those who wrote really, really, really long letters in the first century, Seneca and Paul wrote these moral essays, like on the providence of God and on mercy. John Barkley, for those of your audience who’ve mirror with him, thinks that Paul’s understanding of grace and gift aligns and accords and harmonizes more with Seneca than anyone else. Paul might say things like in Ephesians 5, “don’t let the sun go down on your anger”. But Seneca is going to have three books dedicated to how to overcome anger and what anger is. And so the moral essays would be that. 

And then he also wrote dramas he had two blockbuster hits, if you will, on Hercules. One in which Nero actually played the part of Hercules during that time. And I’m not a literature person, but literature people say that Seneca’s plays actually influenced Shakespeare, and so it was almost proto- Shakespearean.

 David Capes  

Interesting. Well, it’s a great book. It’s a great idea for a book, and you’ve done well. I’ve got a digital copy here, but I always like to hold the copy. I love the cover. Hendrickson is publishing it. 

 Joey Dodson  

Thank you! One of my former students is an acquisition editor, and like you, I have a hard time saying no to my former students. I prize them so much. This is somewhat of a summative work of my last 30 years studying Paul. And the first half is with Wisdom of Solomon, the second half is with Greco Roman philosophy.

 David Capes  

The book is entitled Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought. The author is Dr Joseph R. Dodson. and Joey, thanks for being with us today on the podcast.

Joey Dodson  

Thanks, All the best.

 Paul the Rabbi Philosopher: Stoic and Jewish Philosophy in the Apostles’ Thought.

 

 

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