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Abraham: Friend of God

Here is a transcript of a recent conversation I had with John Lennox regarding Abraham and his role as an exemplar of faith. The conversation comes from a podcast I do called “The Stone Chapel Podcast” on the ChurchLeaders Podcast Network.

John Lennox  

Hello, I’m Dr. John Lennox. I’m an Emeritus Professor of Mathematics in the University of Oxford. But I’m also passionate about scripture, teaching scripture, and Christian apologetics.

David Capes  

Dr. John Lennox, welcome back to The Stone Chapel Podcast.

John Lennox  

Thank you very much. I’m delighted to be with you again. 

David Capes  

Well, you’ve been with us and some of the most hits and downloads we’ve gotten on our podcast have come from you, because you’re such an inspiration to all. The last one we did was on AI. And it’s been a little while, but I’m glad to be back talking to you. Today we are in Oxford at St. Ebbes Church, with John Lennox. Today we’re here to talk about his book, A Friend of God: the Inspiration of Abraham in an Age of Doubt. It’s a great book. 

John Lennox  

Well, I’m glad you’ve read it. I think that’s immensely encouraging. And I have been in general, extremely encouraged by the response to it since it’s only been out a short while.

David Capes  

This is not the first biography you’ve written of important Old Testament figures. 

John Lennox  

No, I started with Daniel. I wrote a book about his entire prophecy. It’s not just a character study of him. But then I did a fairly substantial book on Joseph within the context of his family. In other words, the last major section of Genesis.

David Capes  

That’s a lot of chapters dedicated to Joseph. 

John Lennox  

That’s right. So I thought that the next logical subject to tackle would be Abraham. It was actually a friend of mine, who suggested that I give some lectures on Abraham for a conference, the ELF conference in Europe. And I did that. And immediately afterwards, people said, you must turn this into a book. Henc

David Capes  

Well, it’s a wonderful read. And it’s the kind of character study, the kind of investigation into Abraham’s life that I think helps us. We were talking earlier about my concern that we as Christians, short circuit things by not reading the Old Testament very long, or very well. I did a study years ago and about 82% of sermons (in US Protestant churches) are on the New Testament, which leaves only 18% of sermons for the Old Testament.

John Lennox  

That’s a very interesting statistic. I wasn’t aware of it. But Abraham, of all people is held forth in the New Testament as the major exemplar of a person who trusts God. He’s the man of faith. And he’s held out for us to follow that faith in God. And so that certainly catapulted me into really saying, let’s have a serious look at him. And the whole palette of Scripture information about him. In other words, the whole sequence of chapters in Genesis that deal with him without leaving anything out. 

David Capes  

Warts and all, we might say.

John Lennox  

Warts and all, because he is a complex figure. Well, we all are. And I suppose that’s a major point worth making that if God can do something with a man like Abraham then there’s hope for me.

David Capes  

Yes. Same thing with the figure of David. Maybe one day you’ll write a book about David! I have a rabbi friend in Jerusalem who says that David broke 9 of the 10 commandments. Now he never told me which one he didn’t break! But anyway, though he’s called a man after God’s own heart. A Friend of God, tell us a little bit about the title?

John Lennox  

Well, he’s one of the only people in Scripture who’s called a friend of God. And it’s a very interesting concept, that idea that God can in any way be thought of as a friend of human beings. And really, it goes back in my mind to the pinnacle of creation at the beginning of Genesis. God created the universe by his word, but the very final use of the phrase “and God said” is actually “and God said to them”. God speaks to the humans. And the way in which he interacts with human beings is of course, what the Bible is all about, and offering friendship. And of course, the Lord Jesus, who was the greatest son of Abraham, so to speak, said of his disciples, I call you friends. The information he gave to them as definition of a friend, is someone who knows what his other friend is doing. In other words, the Lord speaks to them and takes them into his confidence. And I think that is such a glorious idea that God can take us into his confidence and along the journey with Abraham. God seems to consult Abraham, which is really an incredible thing to imagine.

David Capes  

And Abraham seems to be able to persuade God of things.

John Lennox  

Even that is true. But the fact is that there is a real, what we might call friendly, discussion between them about big issues. And that’s encouraging because God encouraged us to talk to him as well.

David Capes  

Yes, we can be friends as well. 

John Lennox  

Yes, that’s right. 

David Capes  

And enter into God’s friendship. To know not only his works externally, but to know his ways.

John Lennox  

Yes indeed. And it delivers us from thinking of God as somehow remote and unapproachable. This is the exact opposite of that. And it’s speaking to us in terms we understand. We know what friendship means as human beings. And the idea of being a friend of God in one sense, is mind blowing. But in another sense, if we’re created in God’s image, you would expect something like that to be possible.

David Capes  

Exactly. If we are in God’s image, there ought to be a complementary connection. Your subtitle talks about the inspiration of Abraham. Seeing him as an inspirational figure like Saint Abraham, some traditions might do. But you say that within an age of doubt. The stories about Abraham are about faith, being a man of faith, as an exemplar of faith. But we live in this time of doubt. How do you think Abraham now can address us as a man of faith who stumbled, but he also can be an inspiration for us in our time.

John Lennox  

The first thing I would say is that as far as we can understand from scripture, Abram came from a pagan background. And that’s quite important, because our world has changed very much recently, in the West, at least, from a world strongly influenced by the Judeo-Christian tradition to one that’s largely influenced by any traditions other than Christianity. And therefore, him starting at point zero, so to speak, I think can encourage us to see that God’s revelation to him, which led him to increasingly be sure of God and His promises. And the story is very much about promises, delayed fulfillment, and do you hang on in there, and so on. And it’s very true to life. And we are in an age of uncertainty and doubt, by and large. Though there are some people who are very sure of themselves. But without a deep anchor, all of us would be unsure. And I think, the marvelous thing about this story, if we follow it along, and respond to God, as Abraham did, however imperfectly, then our confidence increases. And we no longer are influenced deeply by existential doubt, that would cause us to sadly miss the purpose that God has for us.

David Capes  

To miss our purpose and our meaning. I was amazed and I didn’t know this. I should have known this is a New Testament scholar, that Abraham is mentioned [in the New Testament] more than any of the other OT person. And he’s quoted, he’s referred to, he’s the exemplar, as you said, of faith. Let’s talk about faith itself. There’s a lot of people writing about, thinking about faith these days. What is faith? What does John Lennox say about what is faith?

John Lennox  

What I’ve tried to do is to understand what is being said here. We’re talking about trust in God. And if you start simply with etymology, the word faith in English comes from the Latin fiidem, which has more to do with trust. I mean, we get from it the word fidelity. So, the idea is one person trusting another person. And that’s in short supply today, which is why we need so many lawyers. And it’s a real problem in the economic world. People are desperate to find trust.

David Capes  

Who can you trust? I keep hearing that question, who can you trust? We’re here at the OCCA summer school. You spoke this morning. One of the first speakers was talking about that very question. Who can you trust? Because there’s so much information out there. There’s so much bad information out there. Who or what can you trust?

John Lennox  

The story of Abraham begins with this pagan man in the Middle East, the ancient Near East. And God reveals Himself to him. And it’s summed up in the New Testament, in a very short phrase: “the God of glory appeared to our father Abraham”. Now, we’re not told much about that. But I find the idea very interesting, because a similar thing happened to the major Christian Apostle Paul, when he was on the Damascus Road, persecuting Christians. Then he saw a very bright light. And the God of glory appeared to him as well. And God showed him something of how great and glorious he was. And Abraham responded and went on this incredible journey. He didn’t really know where he was going. But he knew who he was going with.

David Capes  

He had no map; he had no GPS. He knew there were roads this way. And there are people down that way.

John Lennox  

No, God spoke to him and said get going to the land that I will show you. And it’s utterly remarkable. It pays to sit and think about that. How would we feel about doing that? How would our families feel about that? That’s an amazing thing in any culture, and at any time. But the idea behind it is that God speaks, He reveals Himself. And that’s hugely important, because scripture itself claims to be a revelation from God. And God speaks to us through that revelation, to which we are invited to respond.

David Capes  

Well, I have a friend who’s written a book recently making the case that in the New Testament, at least, the word pistis, which is often translated “faith,” or sometimes trust, but also has the sense of an allegiance. And allegiance to God. We are connected. Maybe that’s the friend part. We are connected and I have allegiance to you because we are friends.

John Lennox  

Yeah, I like that idea. I think it’s hugely important, that idea that we’re following someone we trust, and to whom, therefore, we owe allegiance. I think that fills it out in a very important way. Because that’s the essence of the Christian gospel. And you asked me about the nature of faith, the Christian faith is evidence based. That is, it’s not a leap in the dark as so often people think. It’s a step, following something that you’ve experienced or seen, and Abram must have seen something very powerful when God spoke to him. It wasn’t some mere chimera of the imagination, that God revealed himself in some special way. And that’s what we’re promised in New Testament terms. Why would I want to trust Christ? Well, we’re given a lot of evidence. Now what happened to Abraham all the way along? A lot of things happen that built up the evidence that God was with him. it didn’t all happen at once.

David Capes  

He didn’t become a great nation, develop his reputation, be blessed by God, overnight. No, it was something that took a lifetime.

John Lennox  

Yes, for most of his life. He was a small nomadic tribe wandering about the Middle East.

David Capes  

At the very end of that charge, and also promise, God says, “I will make you a great nation and through you, all the families of the earth will be blessed.” How do you interpret that last phrase? Through you all the families of the earth will be blessed.

John Lennox  

Well, the interesting fact, as pointed out by many people, including the late chief rabbi of the UK, is that a huge proportion of the world population actually owe their allegiance in some way to Abraham. Jews, Muslims and Christians. But I think we begin to see the answer to that within the book of Genesis itself. Because as I said a moment ago, most of his story, he’s just a small tribe. But at the end of the book, you find that one of his descendants, Joseph, becomes something like the Minister of Agriculture of Egypt, and economically saves the world. And it seems to me that’s an indicator within the book of how this is going to happen. And the answer, the ultimate answer to it is that one of the descendants of Abraham, the greatest descendant, the most important is Christ. He offers forgiveness to everybody that trusts him, and new life, and a power to live. And in that sense, Christianity has spread around the globe, and is still spreading in spite of all the opposition.

David Capes  

[The influence of Christianity] seems to be waning in the West. But in places like Africa, and China and South America, I mean, it’s blowing the doors off.

John Lennox  

You make a very important point. The West has been very much sustained by Christian ethical dimension and the Old Testament commandments for centuries. But that has waned, as you say.  But in the majority world, Christianity is growing and very obviously growing and in a thrilling way. And so, I don’t think the evidence for that promise being fulfilled is diminishing in any way. It’s rather increasing.

David Capes  

In Paul’s language, it’s for Jew and Gentile, male and female, slave and free. 

John Lennox  

Yes, everybody on the same basis of faith in Christ, so that I can say that I am a son of Abraham, in the sense that I share his faith and trust. And that is a wonderful thing. It includes us, in the people of God, from whatever background we come.

David Capes  

There are some sons of Abraham genetically through DNA that have left Abraham behind. But we have been, as Christians, (again Paul’s language), grafted in, made part of the family. Adopted, if you want to use that language.

John Lennox  

That’s exactly right. And what has happened there, according to Paul, and those famous chapters of Romans 9 to 11, is that the burden of witness to God has shifted from the Hebrew nation to Gentiles. And it is predominantly Gentile at the moment. But there are signs that that may change according to the biblical record.

David Capes  

It could well be. I love the way the book of Revelation sums it all up when there’s a vision of 144,000. And that’s what he hears. He hears that there’s 144,000, and they’re all out of Israel. There’s 12,000 from this tribe etc. And then when he turns, he sees a multitude that cannot be numbered and it’s of every tribe, and of every language, and every people, every ethnic group.

John Lennox  

That’s right. Many words are used in that sentence. Which is very interesting, which is hammering the fact that this is a message for the whole world. And, that sense is traceable back to Abraham. I felt it was important, at least to make an effort to reverse the point that you made earlier that we pay far too little attention to the biblical roots of the Christian faith in the Old Testament.

David Capes  

[And the Old Testament] was the Bible of Jesus. The Bible of Paul and the early church, so we should be paying more attention to it. I don’t know exactly what the right percentages ought to be. But I think we should be reading and absorbing and just digesting these stories as exemplars, as you said. Right now as part of our worship, as part of our devotion.

John Lennox  

Absolutely because a lot of the New Testament depends on it. Paul uses Abraham again and again to reason his theological case, as well as the moral and spiritual implications of the gospel. And the last book of the Bible that you’ve mentioned, has an absolute huge store of allusions and citations of the Old Testament. So, it all culminates there and to remove the Old Testament from our thinking and preaching is to cut off part of the lifeblood of the Bible.

David Capes  

Well, it’s a great book, and I would recommend it. It’s called A Friend of God: The Inspiration of Abraham in An Age of Doubt by Dr. John Lennox. John, you’re a good friend to the Lanier Foundation. We thank you and I’m grateful that you could be a part of our podcast today.

John Lennox  

Well thank you very much. Delighted to be with you.

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The Mt. Ebal Curse Tablet with Scott Stripling

Recently, I sat down with Scott Stripling to talk about the publication of his team’s work on the discovery of the Curse Table from Mt. Ebal. It was an episode of “The Stone Chapel Podcast.” eHere’s a transcript of my conversation.

Scott Stripling  

Hi, I’m Scott Stripling, Provost at the Bible Seminary and VP of Donor Relations

David Capes

Dr. Scott Stripling, Scott. Good to see you. Welcome back to the Lanier Theological Library.

Scott Stripling  

Oh, David, it’s always a joy to come see you here, my friend. It’s a beautiful place and I think I might just move in.

David Capes  

For those who don’t know Scott Stripling, tell us about yourslef. Who is Scott Stripling?

Scott Stripling  

Well, I’m 60 years old. I’ve been married for 40 years. I have a PhD in ancient near eastern archaeology and a couple of master’s degrees. I’m a sports fanatic. I love my family and love the Lord. I’m addicted to reading the Bible and all the material culture and references that illuminate that background for us.

David Capes  

Well, you’ve been digging up a number of really interesting places in Israel over the last few years. I’d love to at some point, to talk about that. But today, we’re going to talk specifically about an announcement that you made last year at a press conference here at the Lanier Theological Library, about a find that has gotten a lot of attention. What did you announce last year?

Scott Stripling  

Yeah, it was March of last year [2022]. So just a little over 12 months ago we had a press conference here. Believe it or not, over 25 million people watched that press conference. There was a lot of interest and the reason is because it was a small folded lead tablet from Mt. Ebal. And it had what we believe is the oldest Hebrew script in a proto-alphabetic script. So the oldest Hebrew writing ever found in Israel and it included the name of Israel’s God.

David Capes  

Where was it found? 

Scott Stripling  

Okay, let me give you some landmarks. Abram cut covenant with God at Elon Moreh, Moses told the Israelites when you come back into the land and you gain a foothold, you’re going to go to Mt. Gerizim, which is right next to Elon Moreh, and you’re going to renew covenant with me there, pronouncing blessings from Gerizim and curses from Ebal. Joshua built an altar on Mt. Ebal to the Lord: Joshua 8:30. Adam Zertal excavated that altar in the 1980s. We went back and sifted through [the rubble] using a new technology of wet sifting. And that’s where we found this jewel.

David Capes  

So a dig was conducted in the 1980s. There was some refuse from that, because they were digging down and they just didn’t see this [artifact], right? They missed it. 

Scott Stripling  

No, in fact, archaeologists throw away about 75% of the evidence from the small finds. And that was the goal of my project to write a methodological paper and say, we can’t keep doing it the way we’ve been doing it. Because here’s what we’re missing. I had no idea that we were going to find this tablet of great significance.

David Capes  

It seems like everybody wants to find something big and monumental. But in fact, a lot of things over time that were larger, become a bit smaller, with the wear and tear of nature and erosion. But this lead tablet is a fascinating discovery. It was folded, right? 

Scott Stripling  

Yeah, it’s about the size of a business card folded in half, if you can picture that. Made out of lead, which kind of reminds us of Job 19:24. “Oh, that my words were written on lead tablets with an iron pen.” Okay, so it’s a very ancient way of thinking. They’re just gonna write down these words and seal them up.

David Capes  

And once the words were written down and sealed up, what kind of things are on the inside? What does it say? I know you [and your team] have been working on deciphering that. You’re trying to figure that out because you can’t open it up [the folded tablet].

Scott Stripling  

No, we tried and it’s impossible. The lead is now brittle. We had to go to Prague, Czechoslovakia, and use tomographic scanning in a lab there. And using those scans, we were able to recover text on the inside, which then was reinforced by bulges on the outside. So in other words, what we were seeing with the naked eye on the inside of the tablet was confirmed by bulges on the outside of the tablet as well. The first word we got was the word “arrur”, which is the Hebrew word for curse. And at that point, I thought you’ve got to be kidding me. 

David Capes  

So you’re on the mount of cursing. And this [account] goes back to the book of Deuteronomy chapter 26:27. And certain curses are to be pronounced and certain blessings are to be pronounced in this covenant renewal. And this is a particularly important moment in the history of the people.

Scott Stripling  

Well, that’s right. And they build an altar, Joshua 8:30. He says he built an altar to the Lord on Mount Ebal, which is not what we would expect. We would expect the altar to be on Mount Gerizim, the place of the blessing, but it’s on the place of the curse. And I think that’s so beautiful that it’s through the expiation, through the shedding of blood that there’s forgiveness of sin, Leviticus 17:11. And that’s where this tablet came from, was from the altar. So the picture is, here’s these curses first, by God, Yahweh, not by Satan, right? Yeah, you could deal with that. Now this is by Yahweh Himself. You’re cursed, and you will surely die. Now that curse is placed on the altar, and then the shedding of innocent blood covers it. And so the man who will come to the altar then is not held accountable for those curses. It’s the one who won’t own up to his action. So the symbolism is really beautiful.

David Capes  

Interesting. So is there any way to date this? Is there any way to say with any kind of certainty that this is from the 14th century BC or 8th century AD? 

Scott Stripling  

Well, fortunately, our academic peer reviewed article has just been released by Heritage Science. And so if you’re having trouble sleeping at night, just download that and you can read all about it. Yes, there are three ways that we can date this. Number one is from the archaeological context. There were only two strata at Mount Ebal that Adam Zertal excavated, late Bronze Age II and Iron Age I. So there’s only two choices. So either way, it’s older than any previous inscription that had been found in Israel. 

Any Hebrew inscription. Because we’ve got older Canaanite inscriptions. If it’s Late Bronze Age, which is what we argue in the article, then it’s several hundred years older. If it’s Iron Age, it’s still older. The existing ones say the Khirbet Qeiyafa ostracan.  

David Capes  

So for people who don’t know the Bronze Age from the Iron Age. The Bronze Age was first. And then the Iron Age comes later.

David Capes  

Yes, with the transition around the year 1200 from one to the other.

David Capes  

Okay. So you’re arguing [the tablet] is [from] Bronze Age? So 1200, or before.

Scott Stripling  

Yes, 1400 to 1200. It’s in that range. Peter VanderVeen and I believe that it was closer to 1400, Gershon Galil, one of our co authors, feels like it’s closer to 1200. So what we’re saying is, LBII, Late Bronze Age II. And then there’s reasons why one might think it’s slightly older or not. But it’s not only that, we also have the source of the lead, because we were able to chemically test the lead at Hebrew University. And the lead derives from a mine in Greece at a place called Laurion.

David Capes  

Well, that implies imports.

Scott Stripling  

Yes and here’s the thing. We don’t all agree on very much in archaeology, but we all agree that around 1200, the imports stopped. Okay. So what does that tell us? If the lead came from a mine that we know was in use in Greece in the Late Bronze Age and imports to Israel stopped around 1200, ergo, it had to be earlier than 1200. So that’s the second way we have a date. And then thirdly, it’s the epigraphy. The style of writing is unique, and it’s a well known style of writing. It’s just been called proto-Canaanite normally, or proto-Sinaitic. Because they’re using the same alphabet, and Canaanites and Israelites have the same alphabet.

David Capes

It’s like Spanish and English. We use the same basic alphabet. 

Scott Stripling  

Yeah or maybe here’s another analogy. Let’s say I have a Muslim neighbor, and I’m a Christian. We’re still writing in English, right? You can’t tell one religion from another unless we have unique words. So if there was a prayer to Allah or something like that, within the script, then you might know my neighbor was a Muslim. And that’s what we have here. We have the name of God, Yahweh, or YHWH, the three letter spelling, twice. And there’s only one group of people in the ancient world worshipping this God, and those are the Israelites. So three ways: the epigraphy, archaeological context and the source of the lead.

David Capes  

This may well be the earliest evidence for the name of God.

Scott Stripling  

That’s right, in Israel. Now we have an older reference outside of, no I”m sorry, it’s not older. But we have a contemporary reference in Egypt of the Solep hieroglyph in the temple of Amenhotep III. He writes of the land of the nomads of Yahoo, or of Yahweh. So apparently there are nomads who worship Yahweh who have their own land by the year 1360.

David Capes 

And of course, Abraham is a nomad. “A wandering Aramean was my father” as the text says. Well, this is probably changed your life in the last twelve months.

Scott Stripling

Yeah, thanks a lot. I have lost a lot of sleep over this.

David Capes  

So 25 million times it’s been seen.

Scott Stripling  

At least. Maybe as many as 50 million because once things go into secondary media and it gets on Tiktok, I don’t even know how to count things on Tik Tok, but it’s like millions there. And plus the original press conference that we were counting. So we estimate at least 25 million views.

David Capes  

That’s incredible. Well, first of all, congratulations. Second is how do you follow it up? 

Scott Stripling  

Well, you know, now the academic debate begins, okay. And people can look at our research and agree or disagree, give alternate readings. But at least they’ve got good clean research in front of them that they can use as a basis for that. We now want to investigate the outside because we have writing on the outside as well. And so there will be a second academic article. And spoiler alert, it says pretty much on the outside what it says on the inside, but we do need to publish that also. 

David Capes  

Okay. So when you say it’s the same, is it a brief version of the same? Or is it the same length? Is it the same words?

Scott Stripling  

That’s a nice try David, to get that informtion out of me but it’s not gonna work! 

David Capes  

No, okay.

Scott Stripling  

But I will tell you this. On the inside, not only do you have Yahweh Yahu, but you also have El side by side. So the two names for the Hebrew God are side by side, which is very problematic for those who are advocating the Documentary Hypothesis. Because supposedly, those two are hundreds of years apart, right. And we have them side by side. So there’s going to be some theological argumentation, archaeological argumentation on a different levels at which we have to think about this. 

David Capes  

Where do you think the biggest pushback is going to be in relationship to this find and this interpretation?

Scott Stripling  

I think from two areas. Number one is the one I just mentioned. So seminaries that have been teaching the Documentary Hypothesis as a basis for understanding, kind of a paradigm through which people understand the ancient world. This is problematic, and so not everybody’s gonna be quick to say, oh, golly, we were wrong all these years. 

David Capes  

Nobody wants to admit that after teaching, and writing books on it for 40 years. Nobody wants to do that.

Scott Stripling  

And I can understand that. So I think we will get some pushback there. And then from the epigraphic community. It’s a very narrow, you know, people who have this unique skill set of being able to translate these ancient inscriptions. There’s always a variety, take the Khirbet Qeiyafa ostracan, when it came out. I mean, there’s 100 different research angles, well, maybe it doesn’t say this, or it could say that. So we expect that type of thing as well.

Scott Stripling  

No that’s the thing, you’d have to say that it was a forgery. Either we did it or somebody else, you know, left this, this tablet there and it was a forgery or something like that. I laughed when someone suggested that like I’m smart enough to write in proto alphabetic script on lead from Laurion Greece on the planet.

David Capes

So is anybody quibbling over the date of the find at this point, anybody saying no, it really is later.

Scott Striping

No that’s the thing, you’d have to say that it was a forgery. Either we did it or somebody else, you know, left this tablet there and it was a forgery or something like that. I laughed when someone suggested that like I’m smart enough to write in proto-alphabetic script on lead from Laurion Greece on the planet.

David Capes  

A lead that is so brittle that you can’t write on it!

Scott Stripling  

I know! So where there’s two archeologist there are three opinions. And so there will be plenty of opinions. But we just felt like we wanted to be intellectually honest, do our very best research, presented in a highly reputable journal, so that everybody would have it as a historical record.

David Capes  

So has anybody pointed out the fact, that this was not found in situ, this was found in a heap of rubble that was moved off to the side and not seen? That seems like to me to be something somebody would say. Well, we don’t know exactly what level it was.

Scott Stripling  

Yeah, and that’s, a good point, I used to work on the Temple Mount. And for two years, I was a supervisor on the Temple Mount Sifting Project. And so we have multiple time periods from the earliest Paleolithic periods, all the way down to the Mamluk  and even later Islamic periods. Well, that’s problematic. If you’re wet sifting that material. At Ebal, we only have two choices, Late Bronze Age II, or Iron Age I, even though it was found out of context.

David Capes  

You’re already narrow. You’re already a bit narrow compared to what you just described, which could be 1000 years, right?

Scott Stripling  

Right. If that were the case, then that criticism would have more validity. But even if it were Iron Age I, and the script no longer continues into Iron Age I, it would be like saying that Chaucer’s English is still being used in our time or something like that. So, you know, there’s already been a change of script. But even if that were the case, it’s still older than the Khirbet Qeiyafa ostracan by at least a couple of 100 years.

David Capes  

Let’s talk about context. Why did people write these curses on lead texts like this, and then fold them up? What were they trying to do with?

Scott Stripling  

Yeah, that’s a good question. I think it was a titular document, summarizing the curses of Deuteronomy 28 and 29. And there it’s really self inpregnatory. “Cursed are you by the God Yahweh.” In other words, that’s exactly what Deuteronomy 28 says. If you don’t keep my covenant, all these curses will come upon you. So I think it’s a self imprenatory type of a curse.

David Capes  

So a person has, in a sense owned up to that. To being cursed?

Scott Stripling  

Binding himself, saying these are the consequences. I accept those consequences if I don’t keep the terms of the covenant. Which you find the exact same thing in the Abrahamic covenant. So blessings and curses. That’s how Late Bronze Age covenants were cut. There were always blessings and curses. We know of hundreds of these tablets.  They’re called defixios, that is the technical term. But I had never seen them from that earlier time period. I only knew them from later periods. So it’s not like we hadn’t seen it. As soon as I saw it, I knew what it was.

David Capes  

So you knew as a lead tablet and it was some sort of curse tablet.

Scott Stripling  

I knew it was a curse tablet. And I thought, oh, my goodness, it’s a curse tablet from the mountain of the curses. But I’m not aware of them from earlier time periods. So I was as surprised as anyone when the text that we recovered on the inside was a proto-alphabetic script.

David Capes  

Have other curse tablets been discovered from that period?

Scott Stripling  

No. In Israel, no. But in Egypt, yes. But not of the exact style with the folded lead tablet that you have the Execration texts from Egypt. We’ve got curses written on clay tablets. But you have to understand David, Adam’s team missed this. And they were good when they dry sift through everything. And they missed it. My team is also very good. We dry sifted everything again and we missed it. It was only with the new technology of wet sifting, that we were able to then see it and it popped. So, I think there may be a lot of them in dump piles sitting around Isreal.

David Capes  

So you just have to go back and wet sift all those piles.

Scott Stripling  

And that’s my contention to my colleagues. Let’s wet sift before we dump it into the piles, okay, so that we know the context that it’s coming from. Again, that was my motivation for the project. I wouldn’t try to start any controversy other than to say methodologically we can’t keep doing it the way we’ve been doing it because we’re throwing away the majority of the evidence.

David Capes  

So what’s the difference between dry sifting and wet sifting. How do you proceed to do that? What do you mean wet sifting exactly?

Scott Stripling  

So, we set up a portable station that has water that we’re recycling at Shiloh. We have our own water tower, and it’s quite fancy. At Mount Ebal, we just set up a portable tank that had a pump that was cycling water so that we had pressure and hoses. So the matrix, after it’s been dry sifted, then goes and it’s washed like with a pressure hose and cleaned and washed again. And now once the dirt is off of it, all of a sudden, what looked like a rock, is a scarab. See for every one scarab we used to find we’re now finding five and for every one bulla we used to find we’re now finding five. A bulla is a clay impression. So it’s clay that’s been impressed with a scarab or a sealed impression of some kind that has been thrown away. Because when they’re covered with dirt, how’s a volunteer supposed to know what that is? But when it’s washed all the sudden those things pop.

David Capes  

Good role for water out in the desert.

Scott Stripling  

I know. The washing of the water of the word. It brings a lot of things to life. 

David Capes  

That is terrific. Well, there’s an academic discussion now that is beginning. And will continue for a number of years. Is there ever going to be consensus you think, on what this text is and what it means.

Scott Stripling  

I think the person, in this case me, the lead archaeologist and the lead author on the article, always has the advantage, the home court advantage. Because we’re the ones who set out what it is. And even those who disagree, the majority will always go back to either agree with, or disagree with, or cite our original research. You had Yossi Garfinkel here at the Lanier Theological Library, here a couple of years ago. Well he’s the one who excavated the Khirbet Qeiyafa. I think it’ll be exactly like that. You’ll have Yossi as the first one who published it. So people will always go back to his original reading but say maybe it could also mean this or mean that. But they’ll have to refer to his research. I think it’ll be the same thing with this.

David Capes  

So you’re team is the starting point. And you had a team, not just you. You have a team from Israel, from Eastern Europe, as well in Germany.

Scott Stripling  

Germany, Czechoslovakia and Israel. So two epigraphers, I didn’t want just one. You know, I’m sticking my neck out pretty far on this thing. I don’t want just one epigrapher to tell me what he’s seen here. I want two different ones. One’s Christian, one’s Jewish. One’s European, one’s Israeli. I want them both to tell me that they’re seeing this and then I have to agree with them before we’re gonna move forward on it. So that was helpful to have two good epigraphers,. And then of course, the scientist in Prague where we were counting on them to give us high quality scans. Because I mean, what were we going to do without the scans?

David Capes  

Without being able to see inside because it is folded?

Scott Stripling  

Don’t we live in an interesting time to be able to do that? Yeah. even if Adam Zertal’s team had found this, they wouldn’t have been able to do anything with it.

David Capes  

Back in the 1980s exactly. So if people want to learn more about this particular find, how can they do that?

Scott Stripling  

Okay, Heritage Science is the journal, and so they can go to the Heritage Science site. It’s one of the Springer Journals and it’s open access. So anybody can download the article there for free. Doesn’t cost them anything. And then we will have a number of other more popular level articles that are coming out in the near future as well.

David Capes  

Very good. Dr. Scott Stripling. Thanks for being with us today on The Stone Chapel.

David Capes  

It’s a real joy to be with you. Thank you David.

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The Akedah and Job with John Walton

The Akedah refers to the binding of Isaac (Genesis 22). How does Gen. 22:12 in its context of God’s promises to Abraham answer the question of why God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? Hint: There are parallels with Job. Dr. John Walton, Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton Graduate School, is a frequent contributor to this podcast. His many publications concentrate especially in the backgrounds, language, and thought of the Old Testament world.

To hear the podcast (9 min.) click here.

“Exegetically Speaking” is a weekly podcast of the friends and faculty of Wheaton College, IL and The Lanier Theological Library. Hosted by Dr. David Capes, it features language experts who discuss the importance of learning the biblical languages—Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek—and show how reading the Bible in the original languages “pays off.” Each podcast lasts between seven and eleven minutes and covers a different topic for those who want to read the Bible for all it is worth.

If you’re interested in going deeper, learn more about Wheaton’s undergraduate degree in Classical Languages (Greek, Hebrew, and Latin) and our MA in Biblical Exegesis. 

You can hear Exegetically Speaking on Spotify, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. If you have questions or comments, please contact us at exegetically.speaking@wheaton.edu. And keep listening.